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0:07 Brail TV while you are in a state of 0:18 ihram. Indeed, Allah ordains what He 0:24 intends. O you who have believed, do 0:34 not violate the rites of Allah or [ 0:37 violate] the sacred month. Nor the 0:50 sacrificial animals or the garlands. 1:04 The sacred house, seeking bounty from 1:15 their Lord and [His] approval. But when 1:21 you come out of ihram, then you may 1:22 hunt. And do not let the hatred of a 1:27 people for having obstructed you from 1:35 the sacred mosque lead you to 1:37 transgress. And cooperate in 1:42 righteousness and piety, but do not 1:47 cooperate in sin and aggression. And 1:54 fear Allah; indeed, Allah is severe in 2:00 penalty. Sadaqallahul aliyul adzim. 2:09 Peace be upon you, and Allah's mercy 2:11 and blessings. 2:15 >> Dear leaders and future leaders 2:17 throughout Indonesia. We are back again 2:19 with the Indonesia Leader Talk show, 2:21 which tonight has reached its 287th 2:22 edition, raising a theme regarding the 2:28 idea of free tuition in public 2:30 universities. Friends, tonight we will 2:35 discuss an issue that is very strategic 2:37 for Indonesia's future, namely the idea 2:39 of free tuition in public universities. 2:43 This idea is certainly interesting 2:45 because it touches on fundamental 2:47 issues. To what extent can the state 2:50 guarantee broader and fairer access to 2:52 higher education for the public. 2:55 However, the problem does not stop at 2:57 the abolition of tuition fees (UKT). 3:00 There are much bigger questions 3:02 regarding funding sources, budget 3:04 sustainability, quality of education, 3:06 lecturer welfare, research funding, 3:09 campus facilities, and even student 3:11 living costs. Moreover, based on the 3:16 estimates provided, the funding 3:18 required for free tuition for 3:21 approximately 2.83 million diploma and 3:23 bachelor's students is estimated to 3:26 reach 374 trillion per year. This means 3:31 the idea needs to be discussed not only 3:33 from the side of idealism and 3:35 partiality toward access to education, 3:37 but also from the side of policy design 3:39 and fiscal sustainability. Therefore, 3:43 our big question tonight is, can 3:45 Indonesia expand access to higher 3:47 education without sacrificing the 3:49 quality and sustainability of national 3:51 education? For that, tonight we will 3:55 listen to perspectives from speakers 3:57 with diverse backgrounds. Already 4:01 present with us first is Mas Anggun 4:05 Gunawan as the General Chairman of DPP 4:08 Adaksia. Peace be upon you, Mas Anggun. 4:12 >> And peace be upon you too, Mas Saldi. 4:13 >> Yes, thank you for being able to join 4:17 ILT again. Then there is Mas Reza 4:19 Ananta, Chairman of the Student 4:21 Executive Board (BEM) of Unila. Peace 4:22 be upon you, Mas Reza. This young man 4:24 of ours represents the younger 4:25 generation. Peace be upon you. 4:28 >> And peace be upon you, and Allah's 4:29 mercy and blessings. Nice to meet you, 4:32 my brothers. 4:34 >> Thank you, Reza. And also present is 4:37 our host, Mr. Mardani Ser. Peace be 4:40 upon you, Mr. Mardani. Greetings, Bang 4:43 Saldi, Mas Anggun, Mas Reza. Thank you 4:46 all. 4:47 >> Yes. Alright, and later, God willing, 4:51 Mr. Lalu Hardian, member of Commission 4:53 10 of the DPR RI from the PKB faction, 4:56 will hopefully join us, as well as Mr. 4:59 Dahlan Iskan. Hopefully. Alright, 5:02 fellow friends, let us begin our 5:04 discussion tonight. Is free tuition 5:07 effective? Mr. Mardani, please provide 5:10 your introduction and presentation. 5:14 >> Permit me, Mas Anggun and Mas Reza, to 5:16 give the introduction. In the name of 5:18 Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most 5:19 Merciful. Peace be upon you, and 5:20 Allah's mercy and blessings. Praise be 5:23 to Allah. O Allah, send prayers upon 5:25 our master Muhammad. To proceed. Good 5:29 evening and best wishes to us all. 5:33 Leaders and future leaders. Attention 5:35 to education is a sign of a nation's 5:39 progress. Especially when it comes to 5:42 higher education. It means the 5:45 foundation to become a developed nation 5:49 will grow and thrive. The figures are 5:55 quite consistent, that 2 to 5%of GDP 5:59 for research is usually fulfilled by 6:02 developed countries. And because of 6:07 that, when President Prabowo raised, uh 6:09 , I call it "Heavenly Wind," Mas Anggun 6:15 , regarding, uh, free tuition in public 6:20 universities specifically. This is 6:25 something we need to welcome with, uh, 6:30 uh, uh, I call it full of joy and 6:36 happiness. 6:39 >> However, the devil is in the detail. 6:45 Populism without technocracy tends to 6:49 become a disaster. Now, because of that 6:54 , tonight we will try to dissect how 6:56 good intentions are implemented in a 6:58 good way to produce the best results. 7:02 >> I have three points. First, this good 7:06 intention must be followed by a mature 7:10 study. Because if it's not mature, Mas 7:17 Reza, Mas Anggun, if big public 7:20 universities are made free, especially 7:24 if it's totally free, there is no room 7:27 for universities to, quote-unquote, 7:30 perform cross-subsidies. I received 7:35 info that the University of Indonesia, 7:38 for example, gets around 200 billion 7:42 per year from regular fees. Out of a 7:48 budget of 3.9 trillion. Most of it 7:53 comes from, uh, international classes, 7:57 parallel classes, 8:00 >> or, uh, postgraduate programs. Like 8:03 that. That's about 1.2 to 1.3 trillion. 8:08 The government only gives 400 billion 8:10 or so. Now, if it's made free, there 8:14 are no international classes, no 8:16 parallel classes, postgraduate programs 8:18 are also affected in the name of being 8:20 free. Wow, that's a disaster. UI 8:23 wouldn't be able to maintain its 8:26 quality standards. Because to be the 8:30 best university that we discussed 8:33 yesterday, Mas Anggun, 8:36 >> you have to have the best-paid 8:41 lecturers or teachers. Teachers and 8:45 lecturers must be paid the best, you 8:47 know. And that is normal and that is 8:50 reasonable. We value the profession, we 8:55 give sufficient standards for teachers 8:58 and lecturers. Right now it's 20, 30 9:06 million, they say, at UI. If professors 9:11 get 40 or 50, that can retain them. But 9:16 when it goes back to 8 million, 10 9:18 million max, they all disappear. UI's 9:23 experts, uh, made it a university whose 9:28 world ranking keeps going up. Because 9:31 of that, I entrust this: make it an 9:35 open discourse, create FGDs, involve 9:40 rectors, involve students, involve 9:44 lecturers, involve academic researchers 9:49 . Including, uh, matters regarding the 9:53 budget. Because if it's just free 9:57 regarding tuition fees, let's say, it's 10:06 not enough to cover lab costs, research 10:09 costs, costs for upgrading libraries, 10:13 costs for journal subscriptions, and so 10:16 on. In fact, the majority is in...So, 10:20 what I mean is, if we want free 10:22 education, although, Mas Anggun, later 10:27 it won't really look like big 10:29 universities are free; instead, there 10:32 are scholarships. Because college 10:36 education is indeed expensive; it 10:38 becomes cheap because of state 10:40 intervention. Continuing. Yeah, if you 10:45 want to make it free, it shouldn’t be 10:48 free universities, but rather increase 10:50 the scholarships so that more people 10:53 get them, and it’s normal for the 10:55 wealthy to pay; that’s only fair, 10:57 right? Especially if our ranking keeps 11:02 rising, it’s always the case, usually 11:04 international students pay four times 11:06 as much, right? Once we’re advanced, 11:10 that’s how it goes. That’s the 11:13 first thing, the technocracy must be 11:15 strong. The second thing, there must be 11:21 a principle of fairness here. Some 11:27 facts I’ve gathered, Mas Anggun and 11:30 Bang Reza can also provide input later. 11:34 54%of those entering public 11:36 universities come from well-off 11:38 backgrounds. In fact, those who are 11:42 less fortunate end up in private 11:44 universities. So, if you want to make 11:47 public universities free, it will 11:50 actually lead to an imbalance. It 11:54 should be based on equitable higher 12:00 education. I’m a bit worried if 12:05 public universities are made free, Mas 12:08 Anggun and friends. Private 12:11 universities will die. Now, if private 12:13 universities die, the country loses. 12:15 Because with all their conditions, 12:18 private universities also perform the 12:20 duty and function of educating the 12:22 nation. Yes. Now, if private 12:26 universities die, would those 170- 12:28 something public universities be enough 12:31 ? Meanwhile, we have a total of 2,000 12:34 universities, including private ones. 12:36 Even now, many are starting to complain 12:40 to me about how public universities— 12:43 the legal entity ones—used to only 12:47 admit until August, now they even admit 12:50 students in September. It used to be 12:53 just one path, now there’s an 12:55 independent path, an international path 12:57 . Oh, absolutely. In the end, the 13:01 faculty-to-student ratio at public 13:03 universities becomes chaotic because 13:06 they admit as many as possible. 13:10 Meanwhile, the number of lecturers 13:11 doesn't increase, the labs don't 13:13 increase, and private universities are 13:15 drained. This is what they call 13:17 cannibalization. We aren't creating a 13:19 healthy environment. Even though in a 13:24 competitive and healthy environment, 13:26 like in the US, the majority are 13:28 private, and it's just normal. Right, 13:32 like Princeton, Harvard, MIT, let the 13:36 private ones also have the right to 13:39 grow. So, the second point is, don't 13:45 subsidize the rich instead of the poor 13:48 in the name of populist free higher 13:52 education. Lastly, the third point, 13:57 this is a good, interesting idea, but 13:59 someone must have the courage to say no 14:02 . When the scheme does not foster a 14:07 healthy higher education ecosystem. Yes 14:10 , even the simplest way is just to 14:12 increase the scholarships, including 14:15 for private universities. Now, just 14:19 control it. Increase the research 14:23 budget for everyone. Slowly, we will 14:27 rise. Because there is no way to turn 14:29 it around. It's not as easy as flipping 14:32 your hand to build a good higher 14:34 education ecosystem. So we must also be 14:39 brave enough to say no to populist 14:40 ideas that are technocratically weak, 14:42 even if the intentions should be 14:44 appreciated. That's it, Mas Haldi. Just 14:48 a brief opening. Please, feel free to 14:50 continue. Thank you. 14:53 >> Very well. Thank you. This is Mr. 14:55 Mardani being brave enough to criticize 14:57 , as Rocky Gerung says, being newly 14:59 appointed to the Wantimpres. Critical 15:01 as a member of Wantimpres. Good as 15:08 >> if we care about this country, we must 15:10 be brave enough to say something that 15:13 is true. It's just the way to do it. 15:15 >> Yes. Ready, okay. And it suits the role 15:19 of the Wantimpres. All right, now to 15:23 Mr. Anggun, who knows, maybe after this 15:25 he'll become a member of the Wantimpres 15:27 . Mr. Anggun, please. 15:30 >> Okay, thank you, Mas Haldi. Uh, Mr. 15:32 Mardani, thank you for inviting me 15:34 again to the ILT show. 15:36 >> I'm glad, Mas Anggun. Thank you. 15:39 >> Because yesterday, on Thursday, I was 15:41 also invited by Kompas TV to discuss 15:43 the same theme. Yesterday we were with 15:46 the media group, mediacar. Then there 15:49 was Mr. Lalu who we also met yesterday. 15:51 >> Same here. 15:52 >> Who else was there? 15:55 >> Uh, Mr. Hariko. 15:57 >> Uh, from what? From Bakom. 15:59 >> Uh. Bakom means, uh, Media, Anggun, 16:03 Heriko, and who was the other one? 16:06 >> Mr. Lalu. Mr. Lalu was also there. 16:08 >> Oh, Lalu was there too. Yes, yes, go 16:10 ahead, go ahead. 16:11 >> Okay. Okay. This is interesting, but on 16:14 TV we are pressed for time, right? So, 16:18 many things couldn't be elaborated on 16:20 because there have to be entertainment 16:22 aspects and the TV duration is only 1 16:25 hour. Okay. All right, thank you, Mr. 16:28 Mardani. This is still fresh for 16:30 everyone here, and perhaps there are 16:32 fellow lecturers watching as well, 16:35 because I shared the flyer from Bang 16:37 Yahya to our members at Adaksi, which 16:40 is around 6,300 people. Uh, can I share 16:45 my screen so it's easier to follow? 16:49 >> Oh yes, you can. Team, please make him 16:52 a co-host. 16:52 >> Co-host, right. Yeah. 16:53 >> Sure, go ahead. 16:56 >> I just got back from here, Mr. Mardani, 16:58 from the JCC, there is a book fair. 17:03 >> Oh, JCC, right. 17:04 >> Yes, until Sunday. Oh, it’s crowded. 17:07 We happen to have a booth there too. 17:12 >> Here. 17:14 >> Uh, where did it go? 17:16 >> It has appeared, Bang. Yes. 17:17 >> It's clear. Adaksi has started sharing 17:20 the screen, it's processing. Oh, it's 17:23 processing. Okay. 17:24 >> It’s there, it’s there. 17:25 >> It’s there, it’s there. Free 17:26 college. That's good. 17:29 >> It's visible. Yes. Yeah. It's loading. 17:32 Uh, while waiting for Mr. Dahlan and 17:36 Mr. Lalu, hopefully they can 17:40 >> join us. 17:41 >> Yes. Okay, so, uh, I'm trying to digest 17:47 this, related to what is this, an idea 17:49 that is truly extraordinary, and 17:51 actually, if we want to return to the 17:54 constitution, higher education should 17:56 indeed be managed by the state 17:58 seriously. And actually, this is one of 18:02 , what can I say, the ideas from Mr. 18:05 Prabowo that, for me, needs to be taken 18:07 seriously compared to other crazy ideas 18:10 like, for example, the MBG or even the 18:13 COPDES. So, in my opinion, this needs 18:17 to be taken seriously and needs to be, 18:19 uh, supported, but there must be, uh, a 18:22 strong enough study related to, uh, 18:24 this matter. Hopefully, it's working. 18:34 >> The slide hasn't moved yet, Mas. 18:36 >> It hasn't moved yet, Bang? Yes, that's 18:37 right. Still, it's still on the flyer. 18:40 >> Wait a minute. 18:41 >> It seems like it's frozen. 18:43 >> It's still on the front cover. 18:45 >> Okay. Yeah. All right. 18:52 >> Uh, 18:53 >> now it is, it is. Okay. 18:54 >> This is too far. 18:56 >> Oh, too far. 18:57 >> Slide 3. This is page 3. 18:59 >> Yes, page 3. 19:01 >> This is the front page. This is the 19:03 cover page. 19:04 >> Ah, this 19:05 >> this is the second one. Uh 19:07 >> okay. So I want to try to raise, uh, 19:10 whether it's possible—maybe the term 19:13 isn't "effective," but for me, perhaps, 19:16 is it possible or impossible to design 19:19 or to implement, uh, free tuition fees 19:21 in Indonesia, given our geographical 19:24 conditions, with our population which 19:26 is 19:28 >> quite large, right? And if we try to 19:32 compare it with several countries that 19:34 do implement free higher education, it 19:37 seems we also have to think more deeply 19:40 , right? Later, I will try to review, 19:44 uh, several countries regarding this 19:46 free education. Then at the end, I will 19:49 try to enter the constitutional realm, 19:51 right? Is it true that we are required 19:54 by the constitution to make college 19:56 free up to, uh, maybe Master's or 19:58 Doctoral levels, right? Uh, lastly, I 20:02 will try to discuss, uh, what do you 20:04 call it, uh, related to the solutions 20:06 we can take. Maybe it can also be 20:10 brought by Mr. Mardani in meetings, 20:11 perhaps entrusted to our friends in PKS 20:13 on Commission 10, sir. Ah, this is just 20:17 background, you know. 20:20 >> What is it called? Next year, God 20:22 willing, I am going to study in the 20:24 Netherlands, in Amsterdam. Okay. All 20:28 right. Amen. 20:30 >> Amen. Just waiting for LPDP, sir. Okay. 20:35 I want to get into this immediately. 20:37 >> Yeah. Yes. Just waiting for, uh, the 20:40 final interview. Okay. I want to first 20:42 get into, uh, the data. Because this 20:45 really relates to calculations. If we 20:48 talk about funding issues, we must be 20:50 very precise in calculating the heads 20:52 that will then be subsidized by the 20:54 state. Uh, this is the latest data I 20:57 obtained. So in, uh, what is it? In the 21:00 Indonesian higher education statistics 21:02 book. So we have 10.7 million students 21:06 who, if we divide them, are actually 21:08 scattered. So, there are three, there 21:11 are three, broadly speaking, uh, 21:13 students are spread out. First, those 21:15 in higher education institutions under 21:17 the Ministry of Education, which 21:19 include public and private universities 21:20 . Then there are religious higher 21:23 education institutions; they also have 21:25 private and public ones managed by the 21:26 Ministry of Religious Affairs. And 21:30 there will also be PTKLs, if I'm not 21:32 mistaken, Mr. Lalu said yesterday there 21:34 were 23 or 25 ministries that have 21:36 their own schools or their own higher 21:38 education institutions, the service 21:40 academies. So, I want to start by 21:46 taking a look at...well, most of the 21:48 student distribution is actually in 21:51 science and technology, and this was 21:54 actually reviewed yesterday regarding 21:57 how students in service academies 21:59 shouldn't be too pampered, because they 22:02 do absorb quite a large budget, and a 22:05 special committee was already formed by 22:08 Commission 10 yesterday. But I want to 22:13 approach it from this angle, what is it 22:15 , it's actually true what Mr. Mardani 22:17 said earlier. So, the state is actually 22:21 unable to provide all, to provide all 22:24 higher education facilities for the 22:26 people of Indonesia, and that is 22:28 greatly assisted by private 22:30 universities. And the condition now is 22:35 that private universities are, in 22:36 quotation marks, being slowly killed 22:38 off by public universities. Because 22:42 public universities are being required 22:44 to survive on public funds. We plan, 22:48 Mr. Mardani, perhaps in the near future 22:51 to challenge the Higher Education 22:54 System Law which touches on autonomy, 22:57 what is it? Campus autonomy, right. 23:01 Because we see there are funds that are 23:03 not reported because there is no 23:04 obligation to do so, since those funds 23:06 do not enter the state treasury and are 23:08 managed directly by state-owned legal 23:10 entity universities or public service 23:12 agency universities. But we see that 23:17 after running for, well, over a decade, 23:21 there are many cases that we need to 23:24 examine. For example, the latest one, 23:27 the Rector of UNSUT was arrested for 23:29 some kind of buying and selling of 23:31 seats in the medical faculty and 23:32 several other favorite faculties. I, um 23:37 , I am entering here. So, if we crunch 23:41 the numbers, and Mr. Mardani already 23:44 mentioned how OECD countries allocate 23:46 their budgets for higher education. I, 23:52 um, let's try to use what? The 2025 23:55 draft state budget seems to have been 23:57 passed, right, Mr. Mardani? 24:00 >> Already. 24:02 >> Already, right, during the plenary 24:03 session yesterday? Yeah. 24:05 >> Yes. 24:06 >> Yeah. Mr. Lalu said this, yesterday was 24:08 Mr. Lalu's story. So, it was already 24:11 signed off by the DPR, but then two 24:13 days later, Mr. Prabowo gave a speech 24:16 at, what was it, the PAN event, right? 24:19 So, Commission 10 is also confused, 24:21 where will this budget come from? So, 24:25 if what we get is, as Mr. Suhasil said, 24:27 the education budget is 820 or 824, if 24:30 I'm not mistaken, which was the latest 24:32 I read in Kompas this afternoon. So, 24:37 let's say it's 820 trillion, right? 24:42 Actually, if we create a concept for 24:44 dividing the education budget based on 24:47 OECD countries, higher education could 24:49 actually receive about 27%of the total 24:52 education budget in OECD countries, sir 24:54 . Perhaps later for the basic level it 24:59 might be 40, then for the intermediate 25:02 level around 20-something as well. 25:05 Later, the rest will be for special 25:07 education or informal education, for 25:10 example, the distribution actually 25:12 already has a formula, right? 25:15 Supposedly, with the formulas, if we 25:17 refer to OECD countries, the ministry 25:20 managing higher education should 25:23 receive around 205 trillion. But what 25:27 we see is that the budget ceiling for 25:29 the Ministry of Higher Education, 25:30 Science, and Technology for 2027 is 25:32 only 66.4 trillion. So it is still far 25:35 from 205. And even if we add the higher 25:39 education budget allocation for the 25:41 Ministry of Religious Affairs and other 25:43 ministries, it seems it still won't 25:45 reach 205. So, actually, this is the 25:48 formula we should look at first. Are we 25:51 consistent with this distribution? Well 25:54 , if we are consistent, we can actually 25:56 calculate it, right? We at Adaksi have 25:59 tried to calculate it. So, actually, it 26:01 cannot be generalized. For instance, if 26:04 we look at what you call, for example, 26:06 humanities, so programs in humanities, 26:09 in social sciences, for example, they 26:11 are cheaper because they don't require 26:13 labs that are quite complicated, right? 26:17 It is different, for example, the 26:19 highest one if we calculate it is in 26:20 medicine. So, our calculation, Sir, is 26:23 that if we want to finance a student, 26:26 in terms of tuition fees, for 26:29 humanities, it is at least 12 million a 26:32 year. Then we recently got a figure for 26:34 medicine, perhaps in the range of 60 to 26:37 70 million. Those are the figures. So 26:41 from those figures, we then try to 26:43 create a simulation. If, for example, 26:47 60%of those given free tuition are in 26:50 STEM, and 40%are in humanities and 26:52 social sciences, the actual need is 26:55 137.6 trillion. So it is indeed 26:59 slightly higher than the figures given 27:02 by Mr. Brian yesterday, at 93.7 or 4, I 27:04 forget. So, this is, if we are actually 27:10 consistent with this 205 trillion, this 27:14 is maybe only 60%of it. So, it is 27:18 actually possible if we simulate it in 27:21 terms of the budget. But then the 820 27:26 is mostly already taken by the Free 27:28 Nutritious Meal program, which is still 27:29 being used, although by 2028 it might 27:31 not be possible anymore. So, these 27:34 calculations are actually feasible. Now 27:37 , I want to move here, uh what is it 27:42 called? With a simulation, if the 27:45 allocation for higher education is 25%, 27:48 higher education should receive 205 27:50 trillion. Now, if we divide it fairly 27:54 with the number of students and the 27:56 number of lecturers in the Ministry of 27:58 Higher Education, Science, and 28:00 Technology, the Ministry of Religious 28:01 Affairs, and other ministries/agencies, 28:03 the budget that the Ministry could 28:05 receive could reach 159 trillion. But 28:09 the one yesterday was only 66, although 28:12 Prof. Budian supposedly also requested 28:14 another 16 or 17 trillion so that it 28:16 could reach 80. But yes, it's still far 28:20 from the actual figure. For the 28:24 Ministry of Religious Affairs, for 28:25 higher education, they might get 2 28:27 trillion, and for other ministries, 13 28:28 trillion is actually enough given the 28:30 proportion of students they have. I'll 28:34 go through this quickly so it won't 28:35 take too long. Okay, these are our 28:38 calculations, ladies and gentlemen. So, 28:41 we actually have to distribute this, 28:43 this is our simulation. If, for example 28:47 , STEM is 60%and SS is at 40%, the 28:50 actual requirement is 137 trillion. 28:54 Actually, our state budget is still 28:56 quite flexible; fiscally, it's still 28:58 loose if we comply with the 28:59 constitution. I tried to look for some 29:05 references and comparisons with several 29:08 countries that we know provide free or 29:12 affordable tuition. Maybe one that is 29:16 somewhat similar to us with a large 29:18 population is India. But I see that in 29:21 India, it's indeed not for everyone. So 29:25 in India, tuition fees range from, say, 29:28 41,000 rupiah up to hundreds of 29:31 millions if we convert it to rupiah. 29:37 Especially, it's very expensive at IIT, 29:39 which is famous for its graduates 29:41 usually working in Silicon Valley, and 29:44 the tuition is indeed quite high. So 29:48 even in India, although it's known as a 29:51 place for free or cheap tuition—many 29:53 of my friends have done their master's 29:56 or PhDs there—it varies, it really 29:58 varies. There are indeed some public 30:01 universities that are supported by the 30:03 government, so their tuition is quite 30:06 cheap. But it doesn't cover everything. 30:11 So it's not universal. So there are 30:14 variations. If we look at India, it's 30:18 quite interesting; this is data from 30:20 2022 to 2023. There are actually many 30:23 international students, exceeding the 30:25 local students. Local students are only 30:28 44.5 million. Meanwhile, international 30:30 students are 48 million. So many people 30:33 come to India. That has already 30:37 exceeded 50%of the arrival of foreign 30:40 students in India. This is Egypt. Egypt 30:45 is also often said to have free tuition 30:47 . Because many of our people go to 30:50 Al-Azhar. For Al-Azhar, they have a 30:53 concept like*waqf*, so many people get 30:55 scholarships. It's like, well, the 30:59 concept at Harvard actually adopts much 31:03 from this*waqf*concept. So actually, 31:08 even though it's expensive there, that* 31:10 waqf*can finance many students. 31:12 Studying for free. But if we look at 31:16 some other campuses, perhaps 31:18 non-religious ones that offer STEM and 31:22 humanities, the tuition is also quite 31:25 expensive. This is what people often 31:31 refer to, Germany. Germany is indeed 31:35 cheap. Well, back then I did some 31:38 research, maybe around 400 to 500 euros 31:41 per semester. So it's not really that 31:44 expensive. Maybe between a few million 31:48 rupiahs, and that is very cheap 31:50 compared to the UK. When I studied in 31:54 the UK, it could reach 270 million per 31:56 year. So Germany is interesting. But if 32:00 we look at it, what's interesting about 32:03 Germany is that there are actually many 32:05 public universities there, Sir. I 32:09 calculated recently that in Germany, 32:11 private universities only make up about 32:12 12 percent. This also applies to, you 32:16 know, for their students. They do 32:20 provide free tuition, but we have to 32:22 underline that the number of students 32:25 isn't actually that high. The total 32:28 number of students is only 2.8 million, 32:30 if we compare it to Indonesia's 10.7 32:31 million. 32:34 >> Plus, their economy is quite strong, 32:36 and they are also strong in terms of 32:38 taxes. So this is actually what allows 32:41 Germany to offer cheap tuition, 32:43 although for private ones, I see it's 32:46 quite similar to the Netherlands or 32:48 even the UK, though perhaps slightly 32:50 cheaper than the UK. In Germany, there 32:56 is also a fair number of international 32:58 students, maybe nearly one-fifth of the 33:00 total students. So, Germany is indeed 33:05 strong in providing some form of 33:10 funding support for these students. 33:14 Scandinavia also provides a lot of 33:16 cheap tuition because they have few 33:19 students and because their taxes are 33:22 high, they can allocate them well. So 33:25 they are among the countries that are 33:26 compliant with taxes. Now, let me move 33:29 on to this point. So, if we look at the 33:32 landscape regarding higher education 33:33 financing in the world, there are 33:35 actually five schools of thought. The 33:38 first one is zero tuition fees. We can 33:41 see this in Scandinavia. So, attending 33:44 university there is provided for free. 33:48 The second scheme or school of thought 33:50 is low tuition, which we can find in 33:53 Germany or France. Back when I was in 33:57 the UK, I’d meet Indonesian friends 34:00 who didn't get scholarships; I used to 34:02 play futsal with El, Ahmad Dhani's El, 34:05 when we were in the UK. In Germany, 34:09 it's mostly people from the middle 34:13 class. But in the UK, it’s mostly 34:15 children of ministers or wealthy 34:17 entrepreneurs. My close friend back 34:19 then was the owner of Trigana Air when 34:21 we were at Oxford. This is the cheap or 34:25 low tuition category. Then there is 34:28 also controlled tuition fees, like in 34:31 China. I see that in China, there are 34:33 two things that are provided for free, 34:35 Sir. The first one is medical school, 34:37 which they provide for free. Then in 34:39 teacher training schools or colleges of 34:42 education, they provide a significant 34:44 allocation for, uh, what you might call 34:46 free tuition. Then in India, the scheme 34:49 is more of a subsidy, right? So, not 34:52 everything is given for free, but the 34:54 state subsidizes it, and they are quite 34:56 selective about which universities 34:58 receive it. The fifth school of thought 35:03 is the capitalist one, which is led by 35:04 Anglo-Saxon countries like the UK, the 35:06 US, and Australia, where it's quite 35:08 expensive—costing hundreds of 35:10 millions. A friend of mine who studied 35:13 for an MBA at Oxford University had to 35:16 pay nearly 1 billion when converted to 35:19 rupiah for a 1-year program. These are 35:22 the schools of thought. Excuse me. Now, 35:28 let's move on to the constitution. 35:32 Regarding the Indonesian constitution, 35:34 does free higher education fall under 35:37 it? If we look at it, our constitution 35:42 only mandates 12 years of education, 35:45 right, sir? Basic education, that is, 35:49 those 12 years are what must be 35:51 provided and paid for by the state. 35:54 Even though there was a Constitutional 35:56 Court hearing about making private 35:58 schools free as well, there has been no 36:00 solution until now. So, regarding what 36:02 you might call? For higher education, 36:05 our approach is actually more like cost 36:07 sharing, I suppose. It's more of a 36:11 combination between state budget funds 36:14 and public participation, for instance, 36:17 through tuition fees or UKT payments. 36:22 Uh. These are the schemes mentioned 36:25 earlier. As we have discussed, how much 36:28 is actually needed? If we want to make 36:32 everything free so that there is no 36:34 jealousy. It is true, as Mr. Mardani 36:36 said, that there is indeed jealousy 36:38 among our colleagues at private 36:39 universities. They are already 36:42 struggling during new student 36:45 admissions, with many students being 36:48 grabbed by public universities, and now 36:52 only public universities are made free. 36:58 So, if we want to make everything free, 37:00 the figure is 352 trillion if we really 37:02 want to cover it all. Now, let me move 37:07 to the last point so it doesn't take 37:09 too long. So, if we, uh? Let's just 37:15 accept Prof. Brian's statement for now, 37:17 where he mentioned the figure of 93.7 37:19 trillion. Now, this is how I see it, 37:21 Mr. Mardani. That figure should be 37:23 broken down further. I mean, those are 37:27 the figures paid by students, but 37:29 tuition fees have to be divided up, 37:32 right? At our institution, there are at 37:36 least several components that we need 37:38 to divide from the UKT funds. The first 37:42 focus is that if we want to provide 37:45 quality higher education to our 37:47 students, then those who teach must 37:49 also be of high quality, right? Their 37:53 welfare must be ensured, which is why 37:56 we are allocating 25%for human 37:58 resources, specifically for lecturers. 38:02 So, from the figure of 93.7, we get 38:05 23.4. And with this figure, Mr. Mardani 38:11 , we can pay lecturers between 15 38:14 million to 50 million by taking only 25 38:18 %of the tuition fees, which are made 38:21 free. Because tuition fees do include a 38:24 service component, after all. Now, if 38:27 we only allocate 25%, it would be 38:29 enough to cover the salaries for these 38:31 civil servant lecturers, Sir. About 38:34 100,000 people, with the lowest salary 38:37 for teaching staff who are not yet 38:39 assistant experts being 15 million. 38:41 Assistant experts later 20, then 38:44 lecturers 30, head lecturers 40, and 38:48 professors 50 million. So from the 38:52 percentage we obtained, the requirement 38:55 is only 20 trillion. So there is 38:58 actually still a surplus. These 39:00 components must actually be considered 39:03 by the government, in terms of, okay, 39:06 let's provide free tuition, but the 39:09 supporting system to create quality 39:11 higher education must be provided 39:14 proportionally. 39:15 >> Agreed, agreed. 39:17 >> For practical materials, as well as for 39:19 student needs, accreditation, and what 39:21 the labs are like. So, this must be 39:25 divided, and until now, I have not seen 39:27 any such breakdown in the minister's 39:30 statements. Or actually, regarding 39:32 tuition fees, there is already a 39:33 regulation, Regulation number 2 of 2024 39:36 previously issued by Mr. Nadiem, which 39:38 already has a standard for how to 39:39 calculate tuition fees. But the 39:42 breakdown of these percentages does not 39:44 exist yet. So we want to propose this 39:46 to the government. So it's like this, 39:50 Sir. If it were me, actually, perhaps 39:53 our way of viewing public universities 39:57 needs to change. Because I see many, 40:00 what should I say, many holes left by 40:02 the clustering of higher education. 40:04 There are working units, then there are 40:05 BLUs, there are legal entity state 40:06 universities (PTNBH). On the other hand 40:09 , there are our friends in private 40:10 universities. If I could, since Mr. 40:12 Lalu is here. I would like to provide 40:15 input to Mr. Lalu, actually regarding 40:18 the National Education Bill, which will 40:21 be like an omnibus law for our 40:23 education. Because everything is 40:25 combined, from basic education, 40:26 religious education, and higher 40:28 education will all be combined in this 40:30 new bill. Actually, we must leave 40:34 behind the construction of the current 40:37 clustering, the BLU, working units, and 40:40 PTNBH. I would prefer, Sir, that we 40:44 divide it by the form of state mandates 40:46 given to public universities. This 40:49 state mandate will then be adjusted 40:51 according to the budget. So if, for 40:53 example, we want to choose 10 campuses 40:56 in Indonesia that we want to advance to 41:00 reach world rankings. Just yesterday, 41:03 the THE or Times Higher Education 41:05 ranking was released. Looking at the QS 41:09 rankings from last June, I see we are 41:12 still stuck with UI in the 650 to 700 41:15 range. The one ranked higher, UGM, is 41:17 still in the 800s. That’s for the THE 41:20 ranking, since their calculation 41:21 methods are a bit different. So we 41:24 should probably choose one. We 41:26 shouldn't feel that everything has to 41:28 be Scopus-based. Because for THE or QS, 41:31 the proportion for citations and 41:33 research is indeed very, very large. 41:36 That is how they assign their values. 41:38 For QS it’s 30%, and for THE it’s 41:41 even higher at around 40%taken from 41:44 citations and scientific articles 41:46 indexed in Scopus. Right now, everyone 41:51 is racing to compete. Everyone wants a 41:54 world ranking, but the necessary 41:56 funding isn't there. So in my opinion, 41:59 perhaps we should just select a few. 42:01 Maybe around 10. But don't concentrate 42:04 them all in Jakarta or in Java. Maybe 42:07 we take one in Sumatra, one in 42:09 Kalimantan, and one in Papua. Take one 42:13 in Bali-Nusa, one in Sulawesi, and then 42:16 decide how many to take in Jakarta or 42:19 Java. So, regarding World Class 42:23 Universities, my understanding is that 42:26 they don't focus on increasing the 42:28 number of undergraduate students. If we 42:32 want to produce great publications, we 42:34 should have excellent master's and 42:36 doctoral students. They even have 42:39 post-docs. They have post-docs. For 42:42 example, at Oxford, Karina Joe, who 42:45 discovered the Astrazeneca vaccine, was 42:48 a postdoctoral researcher there. It's a 42:54 bit funny in our country, where 42:56 universities like UI, UGM, and ITB, for 42:59 instance UI, accept over 10,000 43:01 students. Maybe in Mr. Mardani's time, 43:04 getting into UI meant we were really 43:06 competing and beating many others. But 43:09 now, it's as common as peanuts. If you 43:12 have the money, there's the independent 43:15 admission scheme. I teach at the 43:18 vocational program at UI, and indeed 43:20 many wealthy people get in. 43:22 >> True, true, true. 43:23 >> Yeah. Back then, it was good because 43:27 there was a passing rate and we 43:29 competed nationally, right? So if we 43:33 want a world-class university while we 43:36 keep increasing undergraduate 43:37 enrollment, it's hard to compete. At 43:41 best, UI might reach the top 150. So in 43:47 my opinion, if we want to be 43:48 world-class, it has to be designated by 43:51 the state. There's no need for everyone 43:53 to be in the race. Because strong 43:55 horses are the selected ones. We must 43:58 provide opportunities to our great 44:00 campuses and give them adequate funding 44:02 . Then don't burden them with having to 44:06 find their own money too. And also 44:08 because most of the revenue is sought 44:10 from undergraduate students. Even 44:13 though, as Mr. Mardani mentioned 44:14 earlier, at UI, the postgraduate and 44:16 doctoral programs have a larger 44:17 proportion of tuition fees, sir. But in 44:22 other places, it is mostly the 44:23 undergraduate students who contribute 44:25 the most, sir. Then we can be selective 44:29 , for example, in France, I see they 44:31 have the École, sir. The École 44:34 normale focuses on teacher education, 44:37 and they recruit the best students from 44:40 their high schools, their secondary 44:42 schools. Actually, we don't need that 44:47 many campuses that are research 44:49 universities; we actually need to 44:51 increase the number of vocational and 44:54 applied universities. Later, there will 44:58 be other assignments in 3T regions, 45:00 which are remote, and then there will 45:02 be good medical campuses there. So, if 45:06 there is this assignment, it will be 45:07 very effective. So the country can be 45:09 equitable, in all regions it can be 45:11 balanced. What are the assignments? In 45:14 Papua, maybe we can build a school, a 45:16 good sports school for example, because 45:17 there is a lot of talent there. So that 45:21 is what I am thinking. So it is not 45:24 based on PTNBH, BLU, and so on. So, 45:28 that is the first thing. So then, if we 45:32 want to make it free, in my opinion, 45:35 these state universities need to 45:37 restore a rational quota. How many 45:40 lecturers do they have? Then, with the 45:43 current workload, how many students 45:45 should they actually take? Don't just 45:48 take everyone because they will end up 45:50 teaching too much. As it happens, I 45:52 have a friend who just graduated from 45:54 Bristol, and his master's was in Leiden 45:55 . Now he teaches history at UGM. He 45:58 complained, because he teaches so many 46:01 classes. Some of our friends at the 46:04 university even teach up to 40 credits. 46:07 So it's like from Monday to Friday from 46:09 morning to evening, when will they do 46:11 research? So that is what is happening 46:15 in Indonesia right now. So we must 46:18 return the proportion for these state 46:21 universities to match their facilities 46:24 and the number of lecturers they have 46:26 so that the excess students can be 46:28 returned to private universities, 46:31 allowing them to survive. As Mr. 46:34 Mardani said earlier, the ecosystem can 46:36 be healthy, right? Later, scholarships 46:40 and research grants can be provided, 46:42 and so on. Ah, this is the last one, 46:45 sir. Mr. Mardani, what is this? So, 46:49 although we were officially inaugurated 46:52 yesterday by the Ministry of Law and 46:55 are officially recognized by the state 46:59 as an organization, when our friends in 47:02 PTNBH speak out regarding, for example, 47:05 loopholes or bad practices in PTNBH, 47:08 for instance, one of our friends just 47:11 received a letter, what is it? A 47:15 warning letter for sanctions, because 47:18 he was quite vocal regarding, uh, the 47:21 uneven distribution of remuneration. 47:25 Then there was also pressure on 47:27 lecturers to be, uh, Scopus-indexed. So 47:30 , Unesa actually isn't really in the 47:32 top five, maybe, of major universities 47:35 in Indonesia or high-quality 47:36 universities in Indonesia. Or the top 47:39 ones, let's say. It's more in the 47:42 second tier, you know. But then, 47:46 because they wanted to compete in 47:48 global ranking races, there was a "one 47:51 lecturer, one Scopus" policy every year 47:54 . If not, their remuneration would be 47:58 cut, you see. So, our friend here was 48:01 quite vocal about it. He is also a UI 48:03 alumnus; his bachelor's and master's 48:04 were at UI. And because he was vocal, 48:09 he exposed how the PTNBH phenomenon 48:12 works and its rot, but he was then 48:14 summoned by the vice-rector and given a 48:17 warning letter. So, this is our 48:22 struggle; we want intellectual autonomy 48:25 , but our campus officials are still 48:27 anti-criticism, still allergic to 48:30 criticism. Perhaps that's all for now, 48:33 Mr. Merani. My apologies for going on 48:35 too long, everyone, ladies and 48:36 gentlemen. Peace be upon you, and 48:37 Allah's mercy and blessings. 48:38 >> Peace be upon you, and Allah's mercy 48:40 and blessings. Thank you, Mr. Anggun, 48:42 for the perspective from the lecturers 48:44 'side; now we want the students' 48:46 perspective, and also welcome to Mr. 48:48 Dalan for joining us. Peace be upon you 48:51 . 48:52 >> And peace be upon you. Very good 48:54 presentation, Mas Anggun. 48:55 >> Yes. 48:56 >> Great. 48:57 >> Yeah. 48:57 >> Alright, sir. Mr. Dalan, if you don't 49:00 mind, we'll go to Mas Reza first, and 49:01 then after that, we'll go to you, Mr. 49:02 Dalan. 49:03 >> Yes, please go ahead. 49:04 >> Alright, Mr. Reza, please proceed, Mas 49:06 Reza. 49:09 >> Alright, thank you for the opportunity, 49:12 Bang Haldi and all my elders. It means 49:16 a lot to have this opportunity to 49:18 discuss with such great figures, and it 49:21 actually raises the question, why were 49:23 friends from UNILA, including me, the 49:26 ones invited? Could it be because a few 49:29 years ago there was sensational news 49:31 about the UNILA campus, right? Perhaps 49:34 I also don't know. Now, perhaps we will 49:38 start the discussion from the 49:40 perspective of free education, which 49:42 certainly intersects with the budget. 49:46 If we talk about the experience from 49:50 the student side on campus, most will 49:53 definitely face obstacles in paying the 49:57 UKT tuition. Because two weeks ago, I 50:01 happened to discuss this with the Vice 50:03 Rector 2 for general and financial 50:05 affairs. He shared that every semester 50:10 during payment, there are definitely 50:12 students who come to his office to 50:15 request tuition relief or a delay in 50:17 UKT payment. Now, this became a point 50:23 of attention for him to ask us, 50:26 representing the students, to open up 50:29 space to help facilitate students who 50:33 really need a reduction in UKT. A 50:37 reduction in UKT or relief from UKT 50:40 payments every semester. So, that 50:43 became an obstacle yesterday regarding 50:45 the UKT financing for every student. 50:48 Well, it was also interesting to have a 50:50 discussion with the Vice Rector 3. At 50:53 that time, I discussed the student 50:55 budget, the UKT student tuition fees at 50:57 UNILA, which are still considered cheap 50:59 because it is still a Public Service 51:01 Agency. For social sciences and 51:05 humanities, if I recall, the highest 51:07 budget was around 5.5 million. For 51:11 engineering, it's in the millions, and 51:12 if we average it, maybe medicine is up 51:14 to 10 million, so the average is around 51:16 8 million. So, Prof. Sunyo stated that 51:24 for a higher education institution to 51:26 reach a decent standard of education, 51:29 every student must meet 18 million per 51:31 year. Now, this is interesting; from 51:35 the Ministry of Education's data, there 51:37 are actually about 10,700,000 active 51:42 students registered in the Ministry of 51:44 Education's database. So, if we 51:47 calculate it with the 18 million figure 51:50 per year and the active students 51:52 registered with the Ministry of 51:55 Education, we get a figure of around 51:58 193 trillion 574 billion. 772 million. 52:03 This is a difference of 10 trillion 52:05 from Prof. Bry's statement. Prof. Brian 52:09 , last February, mentioned that to 52:12 implement free higher education, it 52:14 would require 183 trillion. Now, based 52:18 on the latest data, we actually need 52:21 193 trillion. Which, if we reflect on 52:27 the MBG (Nutritious School Meals), yes, 52:29 learning from the MBG, actually, the 52:31 government is not that it's unable, but 52:34 simply unwilling. Prof, the MBG alone 52:38 could scrape together budget from here 52:39 and there, in quotes, for its 52:40 implementation. That was a highlight 52:44 for us yesterday. Then, secondly, this 52:48 free education cannot just be uh, what, 52:57 we shouldn't just demand the 52:58 implementation of free education. We 53:01 must also accompany this free education 53:04 with a progressive culture from the 53:06 educators in that institution as well 53:08 as the stakeholders authorized for 53:11 progress in that institution. The news 53:15 from 4 years ago regarding several 53:18 universities in Indonesia, especially 53:20 UNSOED and UNILA, serves as a 53:23 reflection for us all on how certain 53:25 positions must also be supported by 53:28 individual integrity and supporting 53:30 systems. I have been thinking a lot 53:35 lately regarding this campus because 53:38 there are structures that should be 53:40 authorized to oversee implementation, 53:43 for example, the Internal Audit Unit ( 53:45 SPI) of the campus, which should be 53:48 able to run effectively. But seeing how 53:53 the appointments are made and also 53:55 designated by the rector, I'm a bit 53:57 pessimistic about how the SPI can run 54:00 optimally. Yesterday, a few months ago, 54:07 maybe a short story about what we 54:09 fought for to represent the students in 54:12 campus administration. Because if we 54:16 talk about free education, sometimes 54:18 even those who pay, those of us who 54:20 have already spent money for something, 54:22 we still have to demand facilities that 54:25 are already our rights. That is what we 54:28 sometimes regret; even though we have 54:31 put in the effort, sometimes our rights 54:33 are still not fulfilled. Our rights are 54:37 not met by the related institution. Two 54:44 weeks ago, we demanded that student 54:46 welfare be supported, especially given 54:49 the news from four years ago regarding 54:52 corruption at the University of Lampung 54:54 concerning medical school admissions. 54:59 Previously, our campus mosque was 55:01 completely demolished—torn down, 55:03 flattened, and leveled—and until this 55:06 very second, even this year, that 55:08 mosque is still not finished. So, 55:10 currently, we have to pray in the 55:12 basement. Now, this is what we have 55:13 been highlighting for 4 years. For 4 55:15 years, the mosque has been demolished, 55:17 and from 4 years ago until now, it is 55:19 still not finished. We even still pray 55:21 in the basement. And if we check the 55:24 LPSE and LKPP records, the total budget 55:27 reached 70 billion. This became a 55:31 question; I had asked the bureaucracy 55:34 about the clarity of why these 4 years 55:38 have been such a long time to complete 55:41 the stalled campus mosque project. The 55:46 answer from the policymakers was brief. 55:52 They stated that there was a fault with 55:55 the contractor, saying the contractor 55:58 did not have the initial capital to 56:00 carry out the contract agreement. This 56:04 actually leads to many more questions, 56:06 doesn't it? This was our focus 56:08 yesterday. That is why we protested in 56:12 front of the rectorate, and our 56:14 struggle along with our alliance 56:17 friends at BMILA happens to be part of 56:20 the BEM Seluruh Indonesia Rakyat 56:22 Bangkit alliance. We also received news 56:26 yesterday and have been monitoring 56:28 issues related to the President's 56:30 statements regarding free education. 56:34 Our demands include the passing of the 56:36 National Education System Bill. Second, 56:38 make education entirely free. I, Reza, 56:42 personally discussed this with my 56:44 friends yesterday, emphasizing how we 56:47 can ensure the monitoring of this issue 56:50 does not stop or end just at the 56:52 passing of the National Education 56:55 System Bill. We must continue to 56:58 monitor it as well. We must help ensure 57:01 that this bill receives special 57:04 attention. How do we do that? 57:12 Meaningful participation must remain a 57:14 priority, and we must also push for 57:17 truly free education. As Brother 57:21 Mardani said earlier, we should push 57:23 for free education, but we must also 57:26 push for the quality of the educators. 57:33 This is indeed the point of focus for 57:37 me, representing the student body in 57:40 the student sphere. How we fight for 57:44 free education must also be accompanied 57:47 by the quality of educators, and 57:49 students must be involved in 57:51 determining the design of free tuition 57:54 policies, especially regarding the 57:56 amount of aid and the mechanism of its 57:59 distribution. Because even if a policy 58:03 is good, it needs to be supported by a 58:05 culture among the implementers to 58:08 execute that policy. It is also 58:12 interesting because yesterday at our 58:15 campus, UNILA in particular, we 58:18 monitored many policies aimed at 58:21 student welfare. Moreover, this is 58:24 interesting: earlier, there was a 58:27 Ministry of Education regulation 58:29 governing the amount of tuition fees, 58:31 which we actually monitored two months 58:34 ago at UNILA, where we were a bit 58:36 envious of other campuses regarding the 58:39 implementation of the community service 58:42 program (KKN). Because on our own 58:45 campus, we sometimes don't get our 58:47 basic rights for the implementation of 58:49 the KKN program. We have 3 credits. 58:53 These 3 credits are included in every 58:55 payment of our tuition fees. Our KKN is 58:58 already included in the semester credit 59:00 units. Logically, these 3 credits, with 59:06 the tuition fees we have paid, should 59:09 entitle us to our basic facilities. 59:13 Well, in every KKN—community service 59:16 program—our campus does not provide 59:19 us with basic facilities. Even for the 59:23 departure, we are advised not to bring 59:25 our own vehicles. But does the campus 59:27 provide vehicle facilities? Not really. 59:29 So, that actually becomes a question. 59:32 Furthermore, for the implementation of 59:34 our service work programs representing 59:36 the campus, we do not receive any 59:38 funding support. Even if we do get some 59:42 , the information is definitely only 59:44 partial. There are even lecturers who 59:46 say, "Don't tell other groups that you 59:48 received this facility or that facility 59:50 ." This really raises a question. Then, 59:53 thirdly, regarding the return trip. For 59:57 the return, we also don't get any 59:59 facilities; given the basic needs and 1:00:01 the tuition amount we've paid, plus the 1:00:04 3 credits in this semester, we should 1:00:06 be getting basic facilities. This is 1:00:12 what we highlighted recently because 1:00:14 when we talk about the budget, we are 1:00:15 currently prioritizing efficiency; it's 1:00:17 not that we aren't capable, but rather 1:00:19 we don't want to implement it. Likewise 1:00:23 with the national budget, free 1:00:24 education could actually be implemented 1:00:26 . We can learn from the BGN as well, 1:00:30 but how can education be free if it 1:00:33 remains just a supporting program? Well 1:00:36 , perhaps that's the introduction for 1:00:39 us to discuss further. 1:00:41 >> Alright, thank you, Mas Reza. Now we 1:00:45 want to hear Pak Dahlan's views 1:00:47 regarding the President's desire for 1:00:50 free education up to the university 1:00:53 level. Is it feasible, is it a solution 1:00:56 ? Please, Pak Dahlan. 1:01:00 >> I am actually still wondering, is this 1:01:03 plan for free education serious? I 1:01:07 still can't quite believe it. Because 1:01:13 based on my observations, this country 1:01:15 is in a state of bleeding. Bleeding 1:01:18 means hemorrhaging. Now, if a doctor 1:01:23 sees a patient who is bleeding, the 1:01:27 doctor's immediate action is how to 1:01:30 stop the bleeding. Exactly. We have 1:01:36 bleeding in the BGN, bleeding in the 1:01:39 Merah Putih Cooperative, and later 1:01:42 there will be bleeding in the 1:01:44 Mothership; there is bleeding 1:01:46 everywhere—is this not just new 1:01:48 bleeding? So, I still don't really 1:01:53 believe that this is serious. I don't 1:01:57 know, my conscience tells me this isn't 1:01:59 right; wanting it to be free when there 1:02:02 are so many problems. And as I said, if 1:02:06 Indonesia is the patient and is looking 1:02:13 for a doctor, the doctor's first action 1:02:15 would not be to cure any illness, but 1:02:18 to stop the bleeding. But here, instead 1:02:22 of stopping the bleeding, we are 1:02:25 creating new bleeding. So it doesn't 1:02:27 make sense to me. Frankly speaking, 1:02:30 although free education is noble, and 1:02:32 although it will be enthusiastically 1:02:34 welcomed by students, and although Mas 1:02:37 Reza said that the Free Nutritious Meal 1:02:39 (BGN) is possible, so this must be 1:02:41 possible too. It just depends on 1:02:44 whether we want to or not. Earlier, 1:02:47 Bung Anggun brilliantly described 1:02:48 various schools of thought regarding 1:02:50 education costs in different regions. 1:02:55 But deep down, I still don't believe 1:02:58 that this is serious. I don't know. 1:03:03 Maybe it's because I'm used to living 1:03:06 life logically. And the first logic is 1:03:09 that we are currently in a bleeding 1:03:11 state. Why would we create new bleeding 1:03:14 instead of focusing on stopping the 1:03:16 bleeding that is already happening? 1:03:18 That is all, thank you. Beyond that, I 1:03:21 agree with Bung Anggun earlier, and Mas 1:03:24 Rita's presentation was very good. 1:03:27 Thank you. 1:03:28 >> Yes. Let's go to Mas Anggun. How does 1:03:33 Mas Anggun respond to Pak Di's point, 1:03:34 beyond the noble intention, but 1:03:36 regarding the feasibility and the 1:03:38 condition of our state budget right now 1:03:40 ? Is this actually serious, or just a 1:03:43 mere wish from the President? 1:03:47 >> Okay. Alright. First, let me look at 1:03:50 the timing. This statement emerged 1:03:53 during a meeting with our friends at 1:03:55 PAN, if I'm not mistaken, it was PAN's 1:03:57 anniversary, right, Pak Mardani? It was 1:04:00 PAN's anniversary, right? I'm still 1:04:04 trying to digest what it is that made 1:04:08 —no, Mas Anggun, the PAN part is fine 1:04:11 . No, it's not the party, it's not the 1:04:15 party, but I am trying to correlate the 1:04:18 context. So, what then made the issue 1:04:22 of free education interesting enough to 1:04:24 be presented in a party meeting? 1:04:28 Because look, Sir. On January 15, 2026, 1:04:32 there were 3,000 academics—rectors, 1:04:34 professors, and those who own many 1:04:37 Scopus publications in Indonesia. Those 1:04:40 lecturers were gathered by the 1:04:42 President, gathered at the palace, 1:04:44 right? At that moment, the President 1:04:47 said, "I will increase the research 1:04:49 fund by 4 trillion." Previously, the 1:04:52 baseline was already set at 8 trillion. 1:04:54 So, a total of 12 trillion. Recently, 1:04:58 Sir, the lecturers submitted their 1:04:59 research proposals, and many have 1:05:01 already come in. Then in April, it was 1:05:05 announced who the winners were, who 1:05:07 passed to get the grant. In June, it 1:05:10 was disbursed, Sir. Do you know how 1:05:12 much was actually disbursed for the 1:05:13 science and technology sector? We don't 1:05:15 know about the Ministry of Religious 1:05:16 Affairs because I didn't get the data. 1:05:18 What was disbursed was only 1.7 out of 1:05:21 12 trillion, they say. So, I am 1:05:25 confused, what was the context of the 1:05:27 PAN meeting and what was the purpose? 1:05:31 Then, why didn't President Prabowo look 1:05:33 for a moment where this could be 1:05:35 conveyed to the public, to those who 1:05:37 actually own or work in higher 1:05:39 education? So, again... 1:05:45 >> Does that mean the moment was a 1:05:47 political moment, so perhaps this 1:05:48 statement is actually a political 1:05:50 statement, is that what you mean, Mas 1:05:52 Anggun? Yes, I mean, if it's the free 1:05:55 nutritious meal, that's still okay, 1:05:57 right? Because of that, the party 1:06:00 members can eventually set up their own 1:06:02 agenda, right? But when it comes to 1:06:05 making public universities free, most 1:06:08 party officials I see actually own 1:06:10 private universities, so they don't 1:06:12 really have a vested interest in free 1:06:14 public university education. Because 1:06:18 those public universities are already 1:06:20 handled by the state, you see. So, 1:06:23 firstly, I think Mr. Prabowo missed the 1:06:26 moment. Then secondly, from our 1:06:29 perspective as lecturers, it's true as 1:06:31 Mr. Dahlan said, this is not just 1:06:34 irrational but it's once again giving 1:06:36 false hope. Giving false hope. I don't 1:06:40 know if this is Mr. Prabowo's moment to 1:06:42 try and boost his electability again, 1:06:44 for instance, among Gen Z. University 1:06:46 students are quite critical as well, 1:06:48 you know. Especially after the students 1:06:51 at UI and several other student 1:06:53 executive bodies held such large 1:06:54 protests. So, I don't know if this is 1:06:57 just a political gimmick. But in terms 1:07:00 of the budget, it really isn't rational 1:07:02 because the current allocation is only 1:07:04 66. As it happens, Bang Reza mentioned 1:07:06 190 earlier. My own calculation is 1:07:10 around 130, about 130 trillion. 1:07:14 Meanwhile, the ministry's own budget is 1:07:16 only 66 trillion. So it really is 1:07:19 impossible, Bang. Bang, Bang Haldi. 1:07:22 >> Alright, now we want to...thank you, 1:07:24 Mas Sangon. Let's go to Mr. Marimana, 1:07:26 Sir. 1:07:27 >> Bang Ali, please continue. Okay. 1:07:31 >> Yes, Mr. Mardani. Earlier, Mr. Dahlan 1:07:33 also felt that, given the current 1:07:35 conditions, the budget is actually 1:07:37 bleeding. The intention is good, but in 1:07:41 terms of feasibility and rationality, 1:07:43 this might not be the right solution 1:07:46 right now, despite the good intentions. 1:07:50 Because according to Mr. Dahlan, the 1:07:52 state budget needs to be made healthy 1:07:54 first. Once the state budget is healthy 1:07:57 , we will have plenty of fiscal space 1:07:58 to provide for new programs. Once the 1:08:01 fiscal budget, the fiscal room, is 1:08:02 healthy first. How do you see it, Mr. 1:08:04 Mardani? Hello. Oh, there's a 1:08:13 disruption. 1:08:14 >> Uh, let me add something. 1:08:16 >> Go ahead, please, Sir. Sir, 1:08:18 >> for example, free public higher 1:08:20 education 1:08:23 >> that, right? In its implementation, we 1:08:28 usually live in the real world, for 1:08:31 example, Unesa, as mentioned earlier, 1:08:35 has 2,000 new students now. Now, if 1:08:40 it's made free, will there be a maximum 1:08:43 quota, for instance? Because if it's 1:08:47 made free, then universities will no 1:08:49 longer have the need to accept that 1:08:51 many students. Even though Bung Anggun 1:08:54 said earlier that the highest revenue 1:08:56 for many universities comes from 1:08:58 undergraduate programs. All this time, 1:09:00 public universities have been like 1:09:03 vacuum cleaners. They just suck up all 1:09:05 available students, leaving private 1:09:07 institutions in a panic. Now, if it's 1:09:10 free, that means there's no longer any 1:09:12 reason to...seek as many students as 1:09:14 possible, right? So, what will be the 1:09:17 solution for that? So, for instance, if 1:09:20 there are 20,000 new students, but now 1:09:23 because it's free, the budget only 1:09:26 allows for, say, 5,000 new student 1:09:28 admissions. Then, to ensure good 1:09:32 quality, it must be adjusted to the 1:09:34 ratio of doctors and the ratio of 1:09:36 professors, so that the instructors are 1:09:39 high-quality and the standards remain 1:09:41 high. For example, from an admission of 1:09:45 20,000 students, it will later become 1:09:47 only 5,000. 1:09:49 >> That means, where will the other 15,000 1:09:51 go? To private institutions. Now, how 1:09:53 do we determine these 5,000? Is it 1:09:57 through selection based on who is the 1:10:00 smartest to fill that 5,000 quota, or 1:10:02 what? I propose that if there is indeed 1:10:07 such a quota, it should be a 1:10:09 combination of the smartest and the 1:10:11 poorest. So, prioritize the poorest 1:10:15 first, and if the number of poor 1:10:18 students exceeds 5,000, then it exceeds 1:10:20 the quota. So, if we say there are 1:10:25 10,000 poor students out of those 1:10:28 20,000, and only 5,000 are accepted, it 1:10:31 means even the poor aren't guaranteed 1:10:34 admission, so the ones accepted are the 1:10:37 poor but smart ones. Like that. Now, 1:10:41 what about the poor who aren't smart, 1:10:43 where do they go? Perhaps to vocational 1:10:45 schools so they can get a job quickly. 1:10:48 Then, what about the smart ones who 1:10:50 didn't make the quota, where do they go 1:10:52 ? Yes, to private institutions. So 1:10:54 eventually, these private institutions 1:10:56 will become great universities because 1:10:58 their students are smart. Yes, frankly 1:11:00 speaking, if it's free, there’s no 1:11:02 longer any incentive for universities 1:11:04 to accept as many students as possible. 1:11:07 What for? Previously, the incentive was 1:11:09 to make a lot of money. Now, what is it 1:11:11 for? Exactly. And besides, if it’s 1:11:14 free, the government also has a limit 1:11:16 on its capacity. Let's say 5,000 per 1:11:18 university as mentioned earlier. So, 1:11:20 who are these 5,000 new students? In my 1:11:24 opinion, public universities should be 1:11:26 free, student numbers limited, and that 1:11:28 limitation should prioritize the poor. 1:11:32 Because if it’s limited based only on 1:11:34 intelligence, the poor might not be 1:11:36 able to get in. Because the wealthy 1:11:38 tend to have smart children since they 1:11:39 can afford tutoring and everything else 1:11:41 . Thank you. 1:11:43 >> Alright, thank you, Mr. Dahlan. Please, 1:11:46 Mr. Marani, share your view. Thank you. 1:11:49 Thank you, Mr. Dahlan. As I mentioned 1:11:52 earlier, good intentions must be 1:11:53 pursued with good methods. Yeah. I 1:11:57 propose equitable higher education 1:11:59 rather than free public universities. 1:12:04 Because if it's free, as Mr. Dahlan 1:12:07 said, even at UI, the majority of the 1:12:09 money doesn't come from regular 1:12:12 students, but from international, 1:12:14 parallel, and postgraduate students. If 1:12:19 it's all made free, the experts at UI 1:12:21 will drop from 600 to 800 again, right, 1:12:23 Mas Anggun? The lecturers who currently 1:12:27 earn 30... 1:12:30 >> 20 to 30 million, if it drops to 10 to 1:12:32 15 million, they will all leave. But if 1:12:37 it's equitable higher education, like 1:12:40 the 8 topped up to 12, implement that, 1:12:43 and then increase the number of 1:12:46 scholarships. In fact, our data shows 1:12:51 54%of those entering public 1:12:53 universities come from affluent 1:12:55 backgrounds. So if state universities 1:13:00 are made free, while private ones 1:13:02 aren't given support, it's actually the 1:13:05 opposite; honestly, we end up 1:13:07 subsidizing those who can afford it. 1:13:12 Now, it is true as Reza said earlier 1:13:13 that there are state universities that 1:13:15 really need assistance. So, there needs 1:13:19 to be a deeper, sharper study conducted 1:13:22 . Populism must be technocratic. 1:13:25 Populism cannot abandon technocracy. 1:13:28 And in my opinion, it would be best if 1:13:31 Mr. Dahlan and Prof. Brian, the 1:13:33 Minister of Higher Education, were 1:13:36 asked to study it first. If the policy 1:13:39 is announced immediately, I feel sorry 1:13:41 for the president. As for me, I saw 1:13:43 earlier that Anggun kept blaming PAN, 1:13:46 but to me. PAN isn't actually wrong; 1:13:48 PAN is just seizing a good moment. 1:13:51 However, it really shouldn't be turned 1:13:53 into a policy straight away. Because, 1:13:57 as I said, good intentions without the 1:13:59 right methods will just go to waste; 1:14:01 the money will be gone and the target 1:14:03 won't be met. There was a study by 1:14:08 BAPPENAS where high schools in a 1:14:10 certain regency in Sulawesi were made 1:14:12 free. Instead, people didn't go to 1:14:17 school because they were lazy, moving 1:14:20 from A to B, C, to D. See, these 1:14:22 studies show it's not easy to manage 1:14:25 public affairs; it has so many 1:14:27 dimensions. That is why the power of 1:14:31 meritocracy and technocracy is very 1:14:33 decisive. It's not just about good 1:14:36 intentions or having the money to run 1:14:38 things; it'll just fall apart. What has 1:14:40 actually succeeded here are the Inpres 1:14:41 elementary schools and community health 1:14:43 centers (Puskesmas). In fact, in 2019, 1:14:46 the researchers who studied the Inpres 1:14:49 schools and Puskesmas even won a Nobel 1:14:52 Prize. Because their public policy was 1:14:55 excellent. Daren Acemoglu, Mas Anggun, 1:14:59 stated that the difference between 1:15:01 developed and backward nations lies in 1:15:03 their institutions. In "Why Nations 1:15:08 Fail," developed countries have 1:15:10 inclusive institutions. Backward 1:15:14 countries have extractive institutions 1:15:17 that depend on insiders. It’s very 1:15:21 sad, for example, that a rector was 1:15:22 recently arrested for selling 1:15:24 independent admission quotas. Perhaps, 1:15:27 Mas Anggun, that’s just the tip of 1:15:29 the iceberg, and there are many such 1:15:31 cases. Now, how can we progress if the 1:15:35 ecosystem isn't fixed, and the 1:15:36 institutions aren't reformed? There's 1:15:40 the BPK, Mr. Dahlan, providing " 1:15:41 unqualified opinions," but it turns out 1:15:43 those are the result of bribery. So, 1:15:46 how can we become a developed nation 1:15:47 with these inclusive institutions? That 1:15:50 is why, as Mas Anggun said earlier, the 1:15:52 ecosystem must be improved. People 1:15:56 should be based on a merit system, with 1:15:59 a punishment and reward budget, 1:16:01 providing facilities and research 1:16:03 funding, and then slowly increasing 1:16:05 scholarships. I actually agreed with 1:16:11 something good from the campaign of, 1:16:13 what's his name, Mas Ganjar. I am not a 1:16:18 supporter of Mas Ganjar, but he had an 1:16:21 idea of one graduate per family. So if 1:16:24 there is a family that has never had a 1:16:26 university graduate, that should be the 1:16:28 target. In my opinion, usually, those 1:16:31 who go to medical school, Mr. Dahlan, 1:16:33 are often the children of doctors. And 1:16:37 it's always like that. So indeed, for 1:16:39 the lowest deciles—if we use deciles, 1:16:42 even though it's currently a mess. So, 1:16:45 Bang Haldi, these good intentions must 1:16:47 be carried out in a good way, with a 1:16:49 good merit system, good technocracy, a 1:16:52 good ecosystem, including good 1:16:53 oversight and active participation. 1:16:57 Invite Adaksi, invite our friends from 1:16:59 PGRI, or as Mas Santatriawan mentioned 1:17:02 yesterday, invite the students. Later 1:17:04 we will find the best mechanism for it, 1:17:06 that's how it is, Bang Haldi. Right, 1:17:10 thank you Mr. Mardani, friends, this 1:17:11 has been a very interesting discussion, 1:17:14 but we have reached the end of the show 1:17:16 . Each speaker is invited to respond 1:17:20 and give a closing statement; as for my 1:17:22 own conclusion, I don't have a closing 1:17:24 statement because everything I said 1:17:25 earlier is my closing statement. Thank 1:17:29 you. 1:17:29 >> Thank you, Mr. Dahlan. Thank you. Now, 1:17:33 let's go to Mas Angun for his closing 1:17:36 statement. Okay. I want to point out 1:17:40 that the figure calculated by Prof. 1:17:43 Brian is 2.8, which is 2.8 million. 1:17:48 Actually, our students in state 1:17:49 universities, the number reaches 40 1:17:51 million. So, indeed, not all state 1:17:53 universities can be provided with free 1:17:54 education. So, I think we should try, 1:17:58 and I agree with Mr. Dahlan earlier. 1:18:01 First, there is actually no real need 1:18:03 to increase the number of students in 1:18:05 state universities. So, it is better 1:18:08 for us to focus on quality, not 1:18:09 quantity. But it seems like you, Mr. 1:18:12 Mardani, are trying to combine them, to 1:18:14 combine them. Sometimes there are 1:18:17 wealthy people who really want their 1:18:19 children to get into the best 1:18:20 universities. And if we look at, for 1:18:23 example, Harvard or Oxford, it is 1:18:25 indeed expensive, sir, the tuition is 1:18:27 high. And most of the time, either the 1:18:30 very brilliant students are given 1:18:32 scholarships by Oxford, or it's those 1:18:34 who are, what do you call it, very 1:18:36 wealthy. Like Maudy Ayunda, her 1:18:40 undergraduate degree was at Oxford, 1:18:42 studying PPE—Philosophy, Politics, 1:18:44 and Economics—which is said to be the 1:18:47 program for future prime ministers or 1:18:49 ministers in the UK. Because many Prime 1:18:52 Ministers were graduates of that PPE 1:18:54 undergraduate program at Oxford. Yeah, 1:18:57 well, this is how I see it, sir. I tend 1:19:01 to agree more with Mr. Dahlan earlier. 1:19:03 So, for state universities, it really 1:19:06 needs to be limited. It needs to be 1:19:08 limited. So, don't let them be allowed 1:19:11 to admit too many students. Because I 1:19:15 see that in many campuses, they are 1:19:17 moving online, sir. Because they cannot 1:19:19 find classrooms. I once met a parent, a 1:19:23 parent at Unesa, who complained that 1:19:28 their child's classes are always online 1:19:30 . And when I met with Mr. Purbaya, the 1:19:33 same thing was happening. I apologize 1:19:37 to Mas Reza, but the tendency of 1:19:39 lecturers not to show up to teach often 1:19:41 happens. So, for instance, at the 1:19:45 Polytechnic where I am, sometimes we 1:19:47 prioritize meetings, managerial 1:19:49 meetings, over meeting with students; 1:19:52 often the class times have to be 1:19:54 rescheduled or moved online, and it's 1:19:56 very easy for lecturers to take things 1:19:59 online these days. And I also hear, I 1:20:02 hear that in many campuses, both at UGM 1:20:05 and UI, many are moving online. I met 1:20:08 Mr. Purbaya yesterday, and he was quite 1:20:10 annoyed too. His child is at UI, sir. 1:20:13 He said, "You’re just attending 1:20:14 online classes all the time.""You might 1:20:16 as well just go study in America," he 1:20:18 said. Because if we are abroad, Mr. 1:20:20 Marani also experienced it, my 1:20:22 professors during my master's degree 1:20:23 never missed a class. They never 1:20:27 skipped class with excuses like having 1:20:29 a meeting, meeting the president, 1:20:31 meeting a minister, or doing side jobs 1:20:33 as a consultant. 1:20:35 >> That's right. 1:20:36 >> Yeah. 1:20:36 >> Yeah. So that’s what’s happening. 1:20:38 That’s why it’s natural for 1:20:40 students to feel like they aren't 1:20:42 getting what they are entitled to. We 1:20:45 have already paid our tuition, but 1:20:47 lecturers are often absent or 1:20:48 frequently moving classes online. 1:20:50 Meanwhile, if it’s going to be online 1:20:52 , I might as well just study at the 1:20:54 Open University (UT), the tuition is 1:20:55 cheaper. I’d still get a degree, and 1:20:58 UT has an excellent accreditation as 1:21:00 well. They are paying for this so they 1:21:03 can have face-to-face interaction, 1:21:05 right? The condition is that with the 1:21:07 high number of students, many classes 1:21:09 are currently unavailable, sir. Many 1:21:12 classes are not available. At my campus 1:21:15 , we even had to create a schedule for 1:21:17 all courses and lecturers that runs 1:21:20 until 6:00 PM, sir. Especially at this 1:21:23 Polytechnic, because we have a lot of 1:21:25 practical work. Not to mention when we 1:21:27 talk about laboratory support. Maybe 1:21:30 for social science students, they can 1:21:32 just have discussions; in publishing, 1:21:33 the most important thing is to bring 1:21:35 your head, because I am a publishing 1:21:37 lecturer. The important thing is that 1:21:38 you bring your head to campus, if you 1:21:39 have ideas, they can be written down. 1:21:41 But for friends in graphic engineering, 1:21:43 they need machines. 1:21:46 >> For instance, in our tourism or 1:21:48 culinary arts departments, sometimes 1:21:49 they have to pay for materials 1:21:51 themselves, sir. That’s why, as Reza 1:21:54 said earlier, many facilities for 1:21:56 students are not being provided by the 1:21:59 campus. So, I agree that admissions for 1:22:02 public universities should be limited. 1:22:05 Now, regarding those limits, we could 1:22:08 divide them if we want to create more 1:22:11 professional schemes. For example, 1:22:15 perhaps there could be a quota, maybe 1:22:18 30%could be free, and 20%for an 1:22:21 affirmative action policy for poor, 1:22:24 bright students. Then for the others, 1:22:28 we should just be open because there 1:22:30 are indeed many people who are capable 1:22:32 of sending their children to public 1:22:33 universities by paying quite expensive 1:22:35 fees. So, we really need to think about 1:22:39 which schemes are best. Should we be 1:22:41 extreme like in Germany, where 1:22:42 everything is equalized? Not just for 1:22:45 the wealthy or locals, but they even 1:22:47 provide it for foreigners for free, 1:22:48 right? Or should we use a scheme like 1:22:52 the one in China? If it's China, it's 1:22:55 more oriented toward that, Sir. 1:22:57 Scholarships or free education are 1:23:00 given to specific majors that are 1:23:02 needed by the community. Like medicine 1:23:06 or teaching, which provide an 1:23:07 extraordinary impact on society and the 1:23:10 development of civil society and human 1:23:12 resources in their respective places. 1:23:16 So, this really needs to be discussed. 1:23:21 As the media often says, don't let this 1:23:23 just be the President's whim without 1:23:25 having been studied yet. So the logic 1:23:28 behind it becomes deductive. The 1:23:31 statement is already there first, but 1:23:33 the supporting arguments turn out to 1:23:35 have no prior study. Like recently, for 1:23:38 example, experts were called stupid by 1:23:40 Mr. Prabowo, right? But a few days 1:23:43 later, peat experts were gathered 1:23:45 because of fires, right? So it becomes 1:23:48 funny, doesn't it? At one moment, Mr. 1:23:51 Prabowo calls experts stupid because 1:23:53 maybe he's annoyed by constant 1:23:55 criticism, but at another moment, he 1:23:58 invites someone like Mas Bagus Mulyadi 1:24:00 because he has research on peat for 1:24:02 fire prevention. So we really must 1:24:07 monitor our President, lest—because I 1:24:10 have a theory, or rather I read a 1:24:12 psychology theory yesterday, maybe Mr. 1:24:15 Dalan understands it better—I see 1:24:18 that people over 70 return to their 1:24:20 childhood. So they return to the times 1:24:24 when they were young. Thus, many of 1:24:27 their dreams from their youth are 1:24:28 things they want to implement. For 1:24:32 example, Mr. Prabowo wants the Free 1:24:33 Nutritious Meal program, I have a 1:24:35 feeling—this is just a hunch—that 1:24:37 this is because he has nostalgia for 1:24:39 when he entered the Military Academy, 1:24:41 where the food was like that and 1:24:43 everyone was given the same thing. Even 1:24:46 when we look at the people close to Mr. 1:24:49 Prabowo, most of them are Tidar alumni, 1:24:51 the Tidar alumni in Magelang, Mr. Dalan 1:24:53 . So, many of Mr. Prabowo's past 1:24:57 memories resurface without him 1:24:59 discussing them with experts, and 1:25:02 suddenly they just appear in public. 1:25:05 And the banks were also confused 1:25:07 recently because just after a decision 1:25:09 was made, two days later the President 1:25:11 said, "We will make everything free 1:25:13 from basic to higher education." So, 1:25:16 let's just wait; this is an interesting 1:25:20 discourse, but the rationality of the 1:25:23 budget needs to be questioned as well. 1:25:27 Thank you, Bang Haldi. 1:25:28 >> Yes. Thank you, Bang. Then, next, Mas 1:25:32 Reza is invited to give a closing 1:25:34 statement, perhaps keep it brief. 1:25:37 >> Okay, thank you. Um, perhaps while Bang 1:25:41 Dahlan in his perspective is still 1:25:44 doubtful and questioning the free 1:25:46 education plan, maybe I am still 1:25:49 optimistic about how the government, 1:25:52 with its capacity, is elected to design 1:25:55 and implement strategic policies. We 1:26:01 still believe that the government can 1:26:03 create policies, can design, and can 1:26:05 also plan the scientific studies for 1:26:08 the implementation of free education. 1:26:12 Now, this might also be the reason why 1:26:13 Indonesia's independence was once 1:26:15 designed by the youth. Because, yes, we 1:26:18 are still optimistic about the current 1:26:20 condition. Because we believe there is 1:26:23 hope for how the youth of Indonesia can 1:26:26 compete on the global stage. By, uh, 1:26:29 focusing on this education. Now, this 1:26:33 might also be our focus, on how to 1:26:37 oversee Mr. Prabowo's statements and 1:26:40 also interpret them accurately. Because 1:26:45 usually, the statements or hopes of the 1:26:47 President are actually good, the ideals 1:26:49 are high. But once it gets down to the 1:26:51 technical implementation, like what was 1:26:54 just mentioned by Mr. Prabowo about 1:26:56 adding 4 trillion in research funding, 1:26:58 right? It turns out when it reaches the 1:27:01 bottom, wow, there are already many 1:27:03 taxes in every post, it's been cut here 1:27:05 and there. Now, that is sometimes the 1:27:09 obstacle, on how these implementers are 1:27:12 also strictly supervised by, especially 1:27:14 , the President; it would actually be 1:27:16 fine for him to go down and see the 1:27:19 implementation of the programs he once 1:27:21 mentioned. Because what we see right 1:27:25 now, perhaps it's very rare, maybe we 1:27:27 only hear in speeches, "I received a 1:27:29 report, I received a report." Now, come 1:27:32 down once in a while, right? Maybe if 1:27:35 he comes down, it will be a bit 1:27:37 eye-opening on how the technical 1:27:38 implementation of what he said is very 1:27:40 far from what we all hope for. Maybe 1:27:43 that's it, Bang Haldi and 1:27:45 >> Thank you, Mas Reza. Hopefully, Mr. 1:27:48 President's team hears this event 1:27:50 tonight, yeah. Lastly, Mr. Marani, 1:27:52 please, Mr. Marani, your closing 1:27:54 statement. Thanks, Bang Reza. Very good 1:28:00 , uh, Mas Anggun, Pak Dahlan. Leaders 1:28:02 and future leaders. Uh, one of the 1:28:08 things we must be truly careful about 1:28:11 is when making public policy. Yes, 1:28:15 there are many dimensions, many 1:28:17 parameters, many considerations. 1:28:21 Therefore, the technocratic merit 1:28:23 system, including designing it, the 1:28:25 saying goes it's better to be 1:28:27 complicated on the table but easy in 1:28:30 the field rather than easy to say but 1:28:32 complicated in the field, Pak Bali. 1:28:36 Finally, and we have an obligation to 1:28:39 remind not just the president, but 1:28:43 everyone, because indeed there is 1:28:46 nothing good that is easy. It must be 1:28:51 done truly in the best way, with the 1:28:53 best process, with many sacrifices, and 1:28:56 because of that, we support the 1:28:58 president's good intentions and it is 1:29:00 our duty to provide the best options, 1:29:02 including the ecosystem and 1:29:04 institutional development. That's it, 1:29:08 Bang Haldi. Thanks everyone. 1:29:10 >> Alright, thank you, Mr. Marani and all 1:29:12 the resource persons, Mas Reza, Mas 1:29:15 Anggun. With that, we reach the end of 1:29:17 our program. We trust and fully support 1:29:21 President Prabowo to provide the best 1:29:24 for his people, including quality 1:29:26 education, equitable education for all, 1:29:29 and perhaps the goal that someday 1:29:31 education can be free, once it is 1:29:34 fiscally feasible. However. 1:29:38 Nevertheless, we hope that all these 1:29:40 public policies are truly supported by 1:29:43 a strong, solid technocratic foundation 1:29:46 , so that in their implementation they 1:29:48 can truly bring benefits to the people, 1:29:51 and be realized correctly without leaks 1:29:54 here and there due to being too rushed, 1:29:56 and clearly benefit the improvement of 1:29:59 the quality of Indonesia's human 1:30:01 resources. Thank you. See you on 1:30:04 Indonesia Talk next week at the same 1:30:07 time and channel. Peace be upon you 1:30:09 >> and Allah's mercy. And His mercy 1:30:11 >> and blessings. 
