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0:07 Brail TV Brazil is very advanced and 0:32 highly regarded in the world. Now, is 0:37 it possible for our regions in 0:39 Indonesia to also be made as advanced 0:42 as Singapore, where perhaps one of the 0:45 conditions for Singapore's progress was 0:48 Lee Kuan Yew's leadership, which could 0:51 be an inspiration for prospective 0:53 regional heads in Indonesia? Yes, Lee 0:57 Kuan Yew succeeded in transforming the 0:59 small island of Singapore into an 1:00 economic powerhouse admired throughout 1:02 the world. Since its founding, 1:05 Singapore became a nation that faced 1:07 many problems that had to be solved, 1:09 including mass unemployment, inadequate 1:11 infrastructure, rampant gambling, and 1:13 other issues that plague a new nation. 1:18 Singapore's first Prime Minister, Lee 1:20 Kuan Yew, had to overcome a number of 1:22 complex and challenging problems 1:24 despite Singapore's limited natural 1:26 resources as well as its small 1:28 population and small territory. The 1:32 country had a vision to become a 1:34 globally competitive world trade hub 1:36 and possess a high availability of 1:38 intellectual capital. Yes, despite this 1:41 , Singapore has now succeeded in 1:43 achieving its goal of becoming an 1:45 important world trade hub by leveraging 1:48 its strategic position in the region. 1:51 Well, my friends. Therefore, we want to 1:55 try to delve into the success story of 1:58 Singapore under the leadership of Lee 2:00 Kuan Yew, who managed to turn a country 2:03 , a small region, into an economic 2:06 superpower with influence in the 2:09 Asia-Pacific region and also in the 2:11 world. For that, we have with us our 2:16 first guest, Dr. Zulkifli Mansyah, 2:18 Governor of West Nusa Tenggara 2:21 2018-2023 and now a candidate for 2:23 Governor of West Nusa Tenggara for 2:26 2024-2029. Peace be upon you, Bang Zul, 2:29 how are you? And then also present with 2:36 us is Mr. Dahlan Iskan, Minister of 2:39 State-Owned Enterprises 2009-2011, who 2:45 also always accompanies us on certain 2:48 themes. And right now, we hope for 2:52 insights and perhaps inspiration from 2:55 Mr. Dahlan Iskan regarding Singapore 2:58 under the leadership of Lee Kuan Yew 3:01 that we might be able to learn from for 3:03 Indonesia. And also present is...oh, 3:07 later joining us will be Mr. Mardani 3:10 Ali Sera as the host of Indonesia 3:13 Leaders Talk, and also Bung Rocky 3:15 Gerung, who always accompanies Mr. 3:18 Mardani in every show. Leaders Talk. 3:22 Alright, my friends, before we begin 3:24 our discussion this evening, we would 3:27 like to express our deepest gratitude 3:29 to the loyal viewers of Indonesia 3:31 Leaders Talk, both at home and abroad. 3:36 This event can be watched live via live 3:39 streaming on PKS TV, Rasil TV, and 3:41 Mardani Ali Sera, and is also broadcast 3:44 through the Rasil radio network around 3:47 Jabodetabek and relayed on several 3:50 Rasil radio networks in various cities 3:52 across Indonesia. And we also express 3:57 our thanks to the viewers and media 4:00 journalists who are always watching, 4:03 covering, and reporting on this event, 4:06 so that our program can be witnessed 4:09 and reported in various media, and 4:12 hopefully, it can contribute positive, 4:15 enlightening content for the media and 4:19 the people of Indonesia. 4:22 Ready. Yes, welcome, Mr. Mardani. Peace 4:25 be upon you. And peace to you, Bang 4:28 Haldi. My apologies. Continue, 4:32 yes. Alright, perhaps we missed this at 4:34 the beginning. Before we start, maybe 4:37 we should begin with a Quran recitation 4:39 . Is the reciter here? 4:46 Yes, sir. 4:47 Yes, please proceed. We 5:00 In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious 5:01 , the Most Merciful. Peace and the 5:02 mercy and blessings of Allah be upon 5:04 you. 5:05 And peace and the mercy and blessings 5:06 of Allah be upon you too. 5:10 I seek refuge in Allah from the 5:12 accursed Satan. In the name of Allah, 5:20 the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. 5:29 Alif lam mim. Allah, there is no god 5:47 but Him, the Living, the Sustainer. He 5:55 sent down the Book in truth, confirming 5:59 what was before it, and He sent down 6:05 the Torah and the Gospel before as 6:15 guidance for the people. And He sent 6:21 down the Criterion. Indeed, those who 6:28 disbelieve in the signs of Allah, for 6:32 them is a severe punishment. And Allah 6:39 is Exalted in Might. Indeed, Allah is 6:52 not hidden on earth or in the heaven. 7:04 It is He who forms you. There is no god 7:18 but Him, the Exalted in Might, the Wise 7:20 . Allah the Most Great has spoken the 7:29 truth. And peace and the mercy and 7:34 blessings of Allah be upon you. Peace. 7:40 Alright, dear friends, let us begin our 7:42 discussion this evening on the theme of 7:45 learning from Singapore under Lee Kuan 7:47 Yew's leadership. We invite Mr. Mardani 7:50 to provide his introduction and 7:52 presentation. 7:54 With your permission, Mr. Dahlan Iskan. 7:57 Let Bang Zul go first. In the name of 8:01 Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most 8:02 Merciful. Peace and the mercy and 8:03 blessings of Allah be upon you. All 8:05 praise is due to Allah. O Allah, send 8:07 prayers upon our master Muhammad. To 8:10 proceed. Good evening and greetings to 8:13 all of us. It is a pleasure to have 8:16 Indonesia Leaders Talk edition 198 8:20 learning from our small neighbor, right 8:24 . It is small, Dahlan Iskan or Bang Zul 8:28 , but its sovereign wealth fund is 1.3 8:31 trillion, almost equal to our total GDP 8:34 . Amazing. Three things only. First, of 8:39 course, we cannot compare Indonesia 8:42 with Singapore. Mr. Habibie called it 8:46 the red dot country, but we can see 8:49 that it is one of the most prosperous 8:54 countries not just in Asia, but in the 8:56 world. Lately, not just economically, 9:00 but it is also called the blue country. 9:03 Because the percentage of those living 9:05 over 100 years old is very high. Uh, 9:10 not only that. Perhaps if Mr. Dahlan 9:14 Iskan often goes to China, I often go 9:17 to Singapore, Mr. Dahlan, because I 9:20 used to study in Johor, in the south of 9:23 Malaysia, which borders Singapore. But 9:27 lately, if you are looking for the 9:29 latest and cheapest books, you go to 9:31 Singapore. So, first, Singapore cannot 9:35 be compared with Indonesia, but 9:37 Indonesia can learn a lot from 9:38 Singapore. I am reading two of Lee Kuan 9:43 Yew's books, From Third World to First 9:46 and this, what is it? One Man's View of 9:50 the World. This confirms that 9:54 everything rises and falls on 9:56 leadership. Yes, everything rises and 9:58 falls because of leadership. That is 10:00 why our theme, the leadership theme, 10:04 will continue to be raised because 10:06 indeed one person, one individual, can 10:10 make the situation of an institution 10:13 change. Lee Kuan Yew explained his 10:17 commitment, his capacity, and his 10:20 integrity in building Singapore from 10:22 scratch. He even tells the story of how 10:28 he wept when they left Malaysia in '63. 10:33 But it was proven afterwards that, in 10:36 fact, many Malaysians want to enter 10:38 Singapore. Also, more than 1,000 10:42 Indonesians become Singaporean citizens 10:45 every year. So we can learn from 10:50 Singapore and from Lee Kuan Yew. 10:53 Because as mentioned, rise and fall 10:56 depend on leadership. Everything rises 10:59 and falls because of leadership. That 11:01 is why for leaders, reading biographies 11:06 is a mandatory daily habit. Why was the 11:11 2010 World Cup held in South Africa? 11:15 Because of one man: Nelson Mandela. Yes 11:19 , we are also doing great; Erick Thohir 11:22 working with Shin Tae-yong has made our 11:24 national team extraordinary. So the 11:28 first lesson: one person can have a 11:31 massive influence. Therefore, growing 11:35 our capacity and strengthening our 11:38 integrity is our daily obligation. And 11:43 that is not a once-in-a-lifetime job, 11:46 but starting from small, consistent 11:49 habits every single day. Holding fast 11:54 to values, holding fast to courage, 11:57 taking risks, and being responsible are 12:00 requirements for us all. The second 12:06 thing we learn—and I don't know if 12:09 Pak Prabowo was inspired by Dahlan 12:12 Iskan—is that Pak Prabowo wants to 12:15 develop a strong government. Lee Kuan 12:21 Yew did liberalize the economy, but he 12:25 maintained a truly strong government 12:28 with firm control. Many things can be 12:32 achieved with a strong government. But 12:36 ensure that this strong government is 12:40 not guided or initiated by people who 12:46 have tendencies toward tyranny and 12:48 dictatorship. But rather, like a father 12:51 who loves his children. Just as a 12:54 father loves his children, a leader 12:56 must love their people. A strong 12:59 government must be based on research, 13:02 based on, what is it? An intellectual 13:06 approach, based on a common-sense 13:09 approach and best practices. Yes, 13:13 Singapore fascinated China from the 13:16 start, even when Deng Xiaoping first 13:18 visited and saw how advanced it was. 13:22 Even though it was a small country with 13:24 no natural resources. Why? Because 13:28 every policy truly followed the 13:31 principle that there is no rocket 13:33 science in winning an election and no 13:36 rocket science in developing a country. 13:39 Yes, it's easy to build a country as 13:41 long as you follow the rules. That is 13:44 why opening investment, strengthening 13:46 manufacturing, then education and human 13:49 resource quality are what was done. 13:52 Point two. Now, the third point is, of 13:55 course, leadership succession. Uh. 14:00 Leadership cannot be taught, it must be 14:02 developed through succession. And that 14:07 is why, from Lee Kuan Yew to Goh Chok 14:09 Tong, to Lee Hsien Loong, and now to 14:12 Lawrence Wong. It was all done through 14:15 very careful succession planning. 14:18 Indonesia needs to learn how to conduct 14:20 proper leadership succession, without 14:22 trial and error, and without constantly 14:25 shifting back and forth so we remain 14:27 stagnant. Tonight we are happy because 14:30 many of our teachers are here. That was 14:33 Bang Aldi as the introducer. Thank you 14:35 very much. Continue. 14:37 Alright, thank you Mr. Mardani for the 14:40 introduction. And now we go directly to 14:43 the Governor, Dr. Zulkifli Mansyah. How 14:47 do you interpret the meaning of 14:50 leadership and perhaps give examples of 14:55 how you built NTB as well. The floor is 14:58 yours, Bang Zul. Thank you everyone, 15:03 especially my teacher, my mentor Mr. 15:06 Daniskat, and also my senior, Mr. 15:09 Mardani. Yes, as Mr. Mardani said, it 15:15 is impossible to compare Singapore and 15:19 us in general, but we can certainly 15:23 learn a lot. A nation once 15:29 underestimated managed to become one of 15:32 the most respected in the world due to 15:36 its economic progress. Of course, if we 15:42 look at it, Lee Kuan Yew's strong 15:44 leadership was the most important 15:46 factor. But it wasn't just strong; he 15:51 also had a vision that was deeply 15:53 rooted and widely shared, 15:56 forced to be understood, and 15:58 internalized by its society. 16:02 But interestingly, Mr. Dani and others, 16:05 Lee Kuan Yew did not emerge in a vacuum 16:09 . He went to school abroad, he 16:14 yes, initially in England, sir. 16:16 Cambridge, right? 16:18 In England, so he realized that, for 16:21 example, if we read his biography, it 16:23 was the importance of the British 16:26 system being applied in early Singapore 16:29 , where police and military were kept 16:31 away from politics. Because according 16:37 to him, economic development requires 16:40 freedom of expression, in the sense 16:42 that politics, the military, and the 16:45 police should not be unified. Now, the 16:50 second interesting point that I think 16:52 we need to learn is his very serious 16:54 investment in education. He firmly 16:57 believed that upgrading the capacity of 17:01 society required improvements in 17:03 education. So it wasn't just 17:06 strengthening institutions, but he sent 17:09 Singapore's best children to study in 17:12 the best universities in the UK. So he 17:15 sent the future leaders 17:18 to Cambridge, to Oxford, to what do you 17:21 call it 17:23 the best schools in England. 17:27 Imperial College, B University 17:29 one of them. But what is interesting, 17:33 Mr. Mardani, is that he learned from 17:38 the best and made it better in 17:39 Singapore. Now, this is interesting. 17:42 He duplicated, he studied, and the best 17:45 people then replicated it in a better 17:47 way in Now, why? Because he no longer 17:52 saw Cambridge as becoming very advanced 17:55 . Next, these best people, after their 17:59 undergraduate experience in the UK, 18:01 were told to take an MBA at Harvard or 18:03 MIT. So there was a shift in 18:06 educational policy toward America 18:08 because he saw 18:09 England was lagging behind 18:13 teaching America. So he learned from 18:15 America. 18:16 After they learned at Harvard and MIT, 18:19 he then created NUS. Then he created, 18:24 um, what's it called? 18:27 NTU. 18:27 NTU replicated, um, MIT. 18:30 MIT. 18:32 But they tried to make it even better. 18:35 And to some extent, NUS and NTU are 18:38 indeed not inferior to Harvard and, 18:41 what's it called, NTU to 18:43 MIT. So, what we learned, if we 18:47 replicate what we are doing here in NTB 18:50 , Mr. Dahlan, is that we are trying to 18:53 shift the perspective of our 18:55 traditional society by sending 18:57 thousands of these NTB youths abroad. 19:00 So, actually, we want to prod the 19:03 central government, Mr. Martani. With 19:05 all its limitations, NTB is capable of 19:08 sending 1,000 people. 19:10 1,000. 19:12 Indonesia, with its vast resources, 19:14 through LPDP, could send hundreds of 19:16 thousands. 19:17 That’s right. 19:19 Instead of sending just one to Harvard 19:21 or Stanford, they could send many more 19:23 for science and technology to Eastern 19:25 Europe, Russia, the Czech Republic, 19:27 Poland, and so on. That’s one thing. 19:30 Now, the second thing, after they 19:33 prepare their, what is it? Their 19:38 educational institutional capacity, 19:40 they start entering the second stage, 19:43 which is called industrialization. 19:46 Industrialization, as you said, Mr. 19:48 Modani, involves manufacturing; they 19:51 don't have natural resources, but with 19:54 science and technology, they are able 19:57 to buy raw commodities from Indonesia, 19:59 process them with science and 20:01 technology in Singapore, and then sell 20:04 them back to Indonesia at a relatively 20:07 higher price. So, we are trying to 20:11 implement that kind of 20:12 industrialization in NTB as well. I 20:14 often say, 20:16 all this time in NTB, we often sell 20:18 unhusked rice but buy back processed 20:20 rice. We sell wood to Surabaya, to Mr. 20:23 Dahlan Iskan’s place, but we buy 20:25 chairs and tables back from there. We 20:28 sell corn but buy animal feed, and so 20:30 on. We have tomatoes, we have chili. We 20:34 all sell traditional commodities, or 20:37 these raw materials, at lower prices. 20:40 But in Surabaya, Bandung, Jakarta, and 20:42 Semarang, they are processed and sold 20:44 back to us. Therefore, yesterday COVID 20:47 was a blessing in disguise; we were 20:50 finally able to practice social 20:52 distancing and physical distancing, 20:54 which spurred the growth of 5,000 new 20:56 SMEs, Mr. Dahlan. So, according to the 20:59 National Disaster Management Agency ( 21:00 BNPB), we were among the best provinces 21:02 in preventing COVID while maintaining 21:04 sustained economic growth. So, what is 21:08 being done, like investing in education 21:12 , industrialization, and structural 21:15 deepening in terms of industry, we are 21:19 trying to copy bit by bit. In our 21:24 opinion, this is not just theory; 21:27 hopefully, what is being done with good 21:30 leadership, and by preparing the next 21:33 generation of leadership in a 21:35 structured and well-prepared way, can 21:38 serve as an inspiration for leaders in 21:41 Indonesia, especially those in the 21:44 regions. That is a small part of what 21:48 inspires us. Of course, there are many 21:49 other things we can discuss later. I 21:51 think that’s the introduction, Sir. 21:55 Alright, thank you, Bang Zul, for the 21:57 introduction. Very interesting. It 22:00 turns out the key starts with education 22:03 , drawing inspiration from education 22:06 and sending future leaders and their 22:08 successors to the best schools. Yes, 22:12 hopefully, this can become a model for 22:14 Indonesia as well. One interesting 22:16 thing, Bang Zul, you mentioned wanting 22:18 to prod the central government. Maybe 22:20 one day, there's no need to push, just 22:22 leave it to Bang Zul in the central 22:23 government later. Yes. 22:27 All right. 22:28 Why, why do I need to emphasize this? 22:31 Because I see that the central 22:33 government, for example, sending one 22:35 person to Harvard could send 100 or 200 22:38 people to Eastern Europe, for instance. 22:41 It's a pity because perhaps the LPDP is 22:45 too fixated on the top 100 in the world 22:50 . Actually, 22:52 if we study science and technology, 22:54 Eastern Europe is not inferior at all. 22:58 So in my opinion, instead of LPDP 23:00 limiting themselves, they should 23:02 prioritize sending people, especially 23:04 those from Eastern Indonesia. Now, if 23:08 they can be sent there, then 23:10 nationalism 23:11 will emerge abroad. So the love for 23:14 Indonesia will be extraordinary. So I 23:17 think the new government needs to look 23:20 past the "best business schools" like 23:22 Harvard, Stanford, and so on. But 23:25 science and technology can be studied 23:27 anywhere in the world at a much lower 23:30 cost. I think that's it, Mr. Mardani. 23:32 Agreed. Adding a little bit, Di. Uh, 23:36 Singapore also initially went to 23:38 Commonwealth countries first because it 23:40 was cheaper, you know. Once they had 23:43 enough, then they moved on to America. 23:46 America is very expensive, very 23:48 expensive, Dik. Meaning we must truly 23:50 have a good strategy. Thank you, Bang 23:53 Zul. Great input. 23:55 All right, thank you, Bang Zul. And now 23:58 we will hear the views from Mr. Dahlan 24:00 Iskan. Please, Mr. Dahlan. 24:04 Yes, I agree with Mr. Mardani and the 24:08 Governor that we cannot, we cannot 24:11 compare ourselves to Singapore. There 24:14 are two things. One, well, we don't 24:18 have the fortune of having a benevolent 24:23 dictator. So, actually, what we need is 24:28 a dictator who is kind-hearted. The 24:31 emphasis is on being kind-hearted. 24:33 Kind-hearted and smart. 24:36 Sometimes we have a dictator, but they 24:38 aren't kind-hearted enough, so the 24:40 dictator thinks only of themselves and 24:42 their family. Or we have a kind-hearted 24:46 person, but they aren't a dictator. Yes 24:49 , it's our fate that Singapore was so 24:53 lucky. Once they got a dictator, he was 24:57 kind-hearted, didn't think about his 25:00 family, didn't think about his children 25:02 , and even lived in his own house. Then 25:07 his children, like the one who just 25:09 passed away yesterday, were also raised 25:12 from childhood to know that even if you 25:14 are the Prime Minister's child, there's 25:17 no such thing as having someone else 25:19 fetch the ball for you. It doesn't work 25:23 like that. And that was consistently 25:25 applied in Lee Kuan Yew's personal life 25:27 , and that is something we cannot 25:29 imitate. Yeah. Secondly, we also cannot 25:34 imitate them because our social capital 25:37 is not like Singapore's. The point is 25:41 that, indeed, to progress, we must be 25:44 more patient. Must be more patient. 25:47 Patient. Patient. Patient. Patient. 25:50 Because, for example, we have Education 25:59 , the point is that our university 26:02 majors in religious studies are 26:05 extraordinarily large compared to, uh, 26:08 science, engineering, and finance 26:12 majors. Likewise, majors such as law 26:16 and social studies are also 26:18 extraordinarily large. So actually, we 26:23 really can't be like Singapore because 26:25 of our difficult social capital. How to 26:31 prepare society to be rational. That 26:34 alone is difficult, we have to realize 26:36 that. Whereas to progress, the society 26:39 must be rational. Well, we must be 26:45 patient about this. First. Second, um, 26:51 how can the government be a bit brave, 26:55 for example, by temporarily closing 26:58 down university majors that operate in 27:04 the social sciences, for example? No 27:06 one dares to do that. And I would 27:10 actually like an institution, if 27:11 possible coming from the Islamic 27:13 community, to research the structure of 27:18 our society. What percentage are 27:22 science-educated, what percentage are 27:24 religiously educated, what percentage 27:26 are law-educated, what percentage are 27:29 accounting-educated, and so on. 27:32 Later we map it out, we just lay it out 27:34 . Here is our population structure: 27:37 science-educated is this percentage, 27:39 religiously educated is that percentage 27:41 , and so on. 27:42 And with such a structure, is it 27:44 possible for our country to advance? 27:47 Right? 27:48 Is it? It's impossible, right? Now, 27:50 something that is impossible, why is it 27:52 continued? Well, it's always like that. 27:56 Something that Mr. Mardani called 27:59 common sense; something that isn't 28:01 common sense must be abandoned. Exactly 28:04 . 28:05 Now, meanwhile, the things that aren't 28:07 common sense are so many, and they 28:09 involve emotions, and they involve 28:12 faith, and they involve religion, and 28:14 they involve worship; it's all so far 28:16 off. So the point is, well, we just 28:19 have to be more patient. And I agree 28:23 the best way is education; well, 28:25 because, but education cannot be 28:28 short-term, it must be long-term. 28:32 Governor, how long did you study in 28:35 Glasgow? Then, upon returning from 28:39 Glasgow, how was it? There must be a 28:42 lot, as I said, hundreds of thousands 28:45 of graduates from America, graduates 28:47 from England. And I agree with the 28:50 Governor that it doesn't have to be 28:53 state-funded to send people to Harvard 28:55 or MIT. Well, let those who have the 28:59 money study there privately. But if the 29:03 state is like, we don't need a Mercedes 29:05 , 29:06 but we need a Toyota, that's enough. A 29:10 Toyota is enough; a Toyota is also very 29:12 good, but we need a lot of them. 29:15 Instead of having a few Mercedes, it's 29:17 better to have a whole lot of Toyotas. 29:19 And a Toyota is also quite good, it's a 29:22 car too, the AC is nice, and the ride 29:25 is comfortable too. So, why do we have 29:28 to, uh, have to chase a Mercedes? We 29:31 have Toyotas, but many of them; that's 29:33 better, right? Thank you. 29:37 Mr. Dalan. Mr. Dalan, you have 29:40 experienced being a minister in the 29:41 central government, perhaps attending 29:43 cabinet meetings with the President, 29:45 Vice President, and other ministers. 29:48 What strategic policies do you think 29:51 the new government needs to implement 29:53 in the near future? We have received 29:58 much input, learning from Singapore, 30:00 and considering the problems Mr. Dahlan 30:03 sees today, what policies should the 30:05 new government adopt? Well, I am full 30:08 of riddles. I am full of riddles 30:11 because if Mr. Prabowo says economic 30:14 growth of 8%, what is the context 30:17 behind it? To reach 8%, how much 30:19 investment is required? Meanwhile, we 30:22 don't have any money left. For example, 30:26 the state's funds have been exhausted 30:29 during Mr. Jokowi's era. Then, one 30:33 thing is certain: the state's money is 30:36 gone. Where will we get more loans? 30:39 Where will we get more money? Secondly, 30:42 during Mr. Jokowi's era, it was 30:45 extraordinary; God favored Mr. Jokowi. 30:48 Extraordinary. Because during Mr. 30:50 Jokowi's era, 30:52 the rainy seasons were exceptionally 30:55 good, 30:57 so for the last 5 to 7 years, there has 30:59 never been a long drought. 31:03 That is a sign that God favored Mr. 31:04 Jokowi tremendously. Now, will there be 31:07 no long drought next year or the year 31:10 after? All this time under Mr. Jokowi, 31:15 farmers were busy with their crops 31:17 because they could harvest rice three 31:19 times a year, for example. 31:22 That is one thing. So agriculture was 31:24 extraordinary. It means the villagers 31:26 were busy with their work so they 31:27 didn't have time for revolution or 31:29 things like that. Exactly. 31:31 Secondly, coal prices were ten times 31:34 higher during Mr. Jokowi's time 31:36 compared to previous eras. Now, will 31:40 coal prices still be good next year? 31:42 No. Because now they have already 31:44 started to normalize. As Mr. Jokowi is 31:46 about to step down, coal prices are 31:47 normalizing again. Even though that was 31:50 a source of extraordinary state revenue 31:52 . Furthermore, under Mr. Jokowi, the 31:56 prices of palm oil, nickel, and bauxite 31:59 were exceptionally high, and that was 32:01 beyond Mr. Jokowi's own control. Beyond 32:05 our control. So, the three main sources 32:10 —our debt capacity back then, food 32:13 production capacity, and the 32:16 extraordinary commodity prices for 32:19 mining and palm oil—were immense. 32:24 There are four things that, in my 32:27 opinion, show God truly loved Mr. 32:29 Jokowi, and will God still be like that 32:31 towards Mr. Prabowo? This is a big 32:35 question. But I do not know Mr. Prabowo 32:38 inside and out. Who knows, he might 32:42 have some major secret mystery so he 32:44 can suddenly find money. Because if 32:48 it's from taxes, it's impossible. At 32:50 most, tax increases are only around 10% 32:53 . It’s impossible to raise taxes by 5 32:56 %, right? So, for me, this is full of 32:59 mystery. Where is Mr. Prabowo going to 33:01 get the money? It is full of mystery. 33:04 But we don't know, we can't say it's 33:06 impossible, Mr. Bok, we really can't. 33:08 Who knows, maybe he has an incredible 33:10 monkey wrench. Suddenly getting money 33:12 from somewhere, I don't know where. 33:15 Well, this is full of question marks, 33:17 where the thought process came from, 33:19 the background reasoning for the 8% 33:21 economic growth. Thank you. 33:27 Alright, thank you, Sir. Maybe Bang Zul 33:33 can answer that later...Oh, let me go 33:34 to Bang Zul first. Excuse me, Mr. 33:36 Mardani first. Bang Zul first, he has 33:39 the experience. 33:39 What do you think, Bang Zul? Are you 33:43 optimistic about the 8%economic target 33:44 for the new government under Mr. 33:46 Prabowo? 33:47 Yes. Hopefully, we can be like what Mr. 33:51 Dahlan said, with our patience, 33:53 hopefully Mr. Prabowo is a benevolent 33:56 dictator. Amen. 34:03 Because, first of all, if we look at it 34:06 , Mr. Mardani. Lee Kuan Yew was strong 34:11 because he practiced what he said, what 34:14 he preached to his people. So, his 34:18 words and actions were aligned. He 34:22 inherited and practiced good exemplary 34:24 conduct for his people. So, his people 34:28 respected and felt compelled to follow 34:30 this figure. So when he said, for 34:34 example, law enforcement without 34:35 exception, the same applied to 34:37 corruption, the war on corruption. The 34:40 root of good economic development is a 34:43 very strong foundation. Because if law 34:47 enforcement is not carried out, if 34:49 there is no certainty, investment will 34:51 never come in. Now, if people don't 34:55 honor contracts and there is no 34:57 certainty for investment, then we can't 34:59 talk about quality economic growth, 35:01 upgrading human capacity, and so on. 35:05 Therefore, in my opinion, the example 35:08 set by a leader is important, so when 35:10 he speaks of law enforcement, that is 35:12 the most fundamental key to a country's 35:14 progress. Now, if law enforcement is 35:19 not selective, and certainly not about 35:22 trading legal issues, then we can talk 35:26 about a war on corruption. If these two 35:29 basic problems can be resolved, I think 35:31 we can be optimistic about the future 35:33 of our country. 35:36 Okay. Right. What about the issue of 35:39 our country's fiscal and financial 35:43 capacity, Bang Zul? Well, in my opinion 35:46 , economic growth is not just about 7, 35:48 8 percent. It could even be higher than 35:51 that. But if the quality is poor, it's 35:53 useless. Take NTB, for example. But 35:56 this is difficult, Mr. Dahlan. Yes, 35:58 when I was praised because NTB's 36:00 economy was the best in Indonesia due 36:03 to its growth rate being one of the 36:05 highest in the country. But I knew that 36:09 even though we were the highest in 36:10 Indonesia, I knew very well it wasn't 36:12 because our economy was actually good. 36:15 But because there was a large company 36:17 like PT Aman Mineral exporting our 36:20 extractive industries abroad. So, 36:22 politically, people saw it and thought, 36:25 "Wow, the governor is great, the 36:27 economic growth is good." But compared 36:32 to looking bad, people who criticize us 36:35 become excessive. But we who understand 36:39 economics know that although economic 36:41 growth is high, the quality isn't 36:43 actually that good. Our economy remains 36:46 stagnant because it's still dominated 36:49 by only certain sectors. But indeed, 36:53 due to the presence of PT Amman Mineral 36:56 , those exports are extraordinary, so 36:59 statistically, we look much shinier. 37:04 However, we must realize that wealth 37:06 distribution isn't felt by the public 37:08 yet, and we are still stuck on 37:10 traditional commodities, not really 37:12 moving forward. But politically, we get 37:15 applause. Deep down in our hearts, our 37:20 homework is still too heavy to change 37:24 that perspective. That’s roughly it, 37:27 sir. So besides growth and GDP increase 37:32 , it's about the distribution, right, 37:35 Brother Zul? 37:37 In my opinion, it's time for Indonesia, 37:39 especially the Indonesian economy, to 37:40 have a strong industrial base. With 37:43 this strong industrial base, we 37:45 shouldn't just export, but we must have 37:48 , for example, something good even if 37:51 it's not consistent. Advocating for 37:54 local products is the best lesson I 37:56 think we got from Mr. Jokowi. But this 37:59 wasn't translated by his ministries 38:01 seriously. Look at how we are even 38:03 happy to import masks. Not to mention 38:06 the heavier stuff, just because the 38:08 fees are actually quite good. Now, this 38:10 is between a rock and a hard place. On 38:13 one hand, we talk about downstreaming 38:15 and industrialization, but the main 38:17 actors in our economy still love to 38:19 import. Then they don't empower local 38:24 products in large project tenders, 38:26 especially in extractive industries. 38:30 Now, this really must be pushed by 38:32 upgrading our human resources 'science 38:34 and technology capabilities. There is 38:36 no other choice. That’s why, like Mr. 38:39 Dahlan, we did it in NTB; when we sent 38:42 scholarships, priority was given to 38:44 science and technology. Because it 38:47 happens that in Europe, science and 38:48 technology majors don't have many 38:50 applicants. So there are many 38:51 scholarships available for those majors 38:53 . For communication and psychology, 38:56 maybe, but for science, technology, 38:59 accounting, and finance, we must 39:01 provide support. Now, since there 39:04 aren't many applicants in Europe, we 39:06 think this should be seized as an 39:08 opportunity. Alright, thank you, 39:13 Brother Zul. Good evening. Peace be 39:15 upon you, Brother Rocky. 39:19 Still on mute, bro? 39:21 Still muted. 39:24 Yeah. Good evening. And two primary 39:27 thinkers regarding the fate of the 39:29 republic. And. 39:34 Yes, Brother Rocky, tonight we are 39:36 discussing again regarding Lee Kuan 39:38 Yew's leadership, who succeeded in 39:41 building Singapore; what lessons can we 39:43 learn for Indonesia? Please, Brother 39:46 Rocky. We remember Lee Kuan Yew as a 39:49 dictator, actually, because he relied 39:53 on stability, but he was a benevolent 39:56 dictator. So, a kind-hearted 39:59 authoritarian. That. 40:01 With Mr. Dahlan. 40:03 Yes, Mr. Dahlan Iskan knows about that. 40:07 But what is interesting is Singapore, a 40:10 small city, like the one in Plato's 40:12 vision, is actually Singapore as a 40:15 city-state, streamlining its economy on 40:18 the premise that it only focuses on the 40:20 financial market. For instance, it 40:25 knows it is a small country, so it 40:28 mandates that security must come from a 40:31 kind of militarism to mobilize the 40:34 people of Singapore as guardians of 40:38 security. That’s what we remember, 40:41 that all Singaporean citizens are 40:42 required to perform military service. 40:45 So it is militarily secure. It 40:47 ensures that it is a service city. It 40:49 didn't want to choose anything else. 40:51 And Lee Kuan Yew’s leadership for how 40:54 many, 30 years? 30 years, yes, that 40:56 shows there is strong legitimacy, what 40:59 is the basis? Economic development, and 41:02 Pak Harto was also in the same 41:04 environment. If we look back, the 41:06 developmentalist model included 41:08 Indonesia, Singapore, and South Korea. 41:10 South Korea was under whom? Under, uh 41:13 ... 41:15 Park Chung-hee. 41:17 Park Chung-hee; so Indonesia was 41:20 actually once the center of ASEAN 41:23 because we are a large country, we were 41:27 capable of creating stability. Our 41:31 military was feared in ASEAN, and we 41:33 became the center of the ASEAN 41:35 government. But Singapore was smarter 41:38 than us. They said, "Go ahead, 41:39 Indonesia, lead ASEAN, but the economy 41:40 stays with us." Yes. And that proves it 41:43 , right? The ASEAN secretariat is in 41:45 Jakarta, on Sisingamangaraja Street, 41:47 but the ASEAN Chamber of Commerce 41:49 secretariat is in Singapore. So 41:52 Singapore was able to steal the idea 41:54 that, in the end, it is the economy 41:56 that is needed, not the politics. 41:59 Jakarta became the political capital of 42:01 ASEAN, but Singapore became the 42:03 economic capital of ASEAN. Now, in that 42:05 regard, I think... 42:07 the gathering of our friends, which is 42:10 ... 42:11 Ijo. 42:15 Yes, 42:16 cool. Cool. 42:17 Thank you, Rocky. Now let's go back. 42:21 Earlier, Bung Rocky and Pak Dahlan 42:23 already mentioned, this is a benevolent 42:26 dictator, right? 42:28 Oh, the same? 42:30 The same. It seems you two are on the 42:32 same frequency even though you haven't 42:33 met. Mr. Mardani, 42:39 I am currently in Surabaya, the place 42:41 where Professor Dahlan Iskan started 42:44 his criticism. 42:47 Great. I am in Sensen, Pak Rocky. 42:53 I am in Gili Trawangan right now. That 42:57 connects, talking about Rocky Gerung in 43:01 Gili Trawangan. 43:04 That's what's happening. Everyone 43:07 doesn't want to go to Gili Trawangan or 43:09 Surabaya because everyone is now in the 43:11 IKN. guarding President Jokowi's final 43:18 days. 43:20 Right, thank you, Rocky. Pak Mardani, 43:24 how do we produce a leader in Indonesia 43:26 with a "dictator" character, in quotes? 43:29 Well, I might translate it more as very 43:32 strong leadership. But if I may add, 43:35 since Pak Mardani is here, 43:38 since Pak Mardani is in Commission II, 43:40 regarding 43:42 I see Singapore's success, besides 43:45 strong leadership, is also having civil 43:47 servants with capable expertise. Very 43:51 professional. So, in my opinion, Pak 43:53 Mardani oversees 43:55 public [matters]. Yeah. If we look over 43:59 there, they aren't tempted to be 44:01 corrupt because their civil servant 44:03 salaries are very high, and they are 44:05 highly qualified once they have the 44:07 privilege of being civil servants. 44:10 So, how about in Indonesia? Perhaps Mr. 44:12 Mardani, you have the National 44:14 Institute of Public Administration 44:16 under Commission 2 and others. 44:18 Great. Great. 44:20 Yes, it connects. What do you think, 44:21 Sir? First, perhaps in terms of 44:24 leadership, so that in Indonesia...... 44:28 leaders emerge whose leadership is 44:30 strong and who are also good-hearted, 44:32 not just thinking of themselves or 44:33 their families—their children, wives, 44:36 and so on. 44:38 And they also need a team, a team like 44:42 Brother Zul mentioned, the civil 44:45 servants who also have good capacity. 44:49 Brother Mani. 44:51 You can go ahead, Brother Aldi. First, 44:55 I think our dream or prayer is for a 44:58 benevolent dictator, we don't need many 45:01 of them. It’s enough for whoever is 45:07 elected as leader to behave with the 45:10 right logic and ethics. Then, to be 45:14 humble. If that happens, God willing, 45:16 we certainly aren't lacking in smart 45:18 people here. But many, once they occupy 45:22 a position, tend to become less 45:25 accessible. And that is why, for me, 45:29 having good logic and ethics—the ILT 45:32 has been there for nearly 200 sessions 45:35 with only one banner: ethics and logic 45:38 are what we build. From there, a good 45:42 climate will grow that appreciates 45:46 people, we will see meritocracy, and we 45:49 will see a system that grows naturally, 45:53 that common sense I mentioned. I was 45:58 quite interested in Mr. Dahlan 46:00 Iskan’s point about 8%growth, since 46:02 even Mr. Jokowi's target of 7%wasn't 46:05 reached in 10 years, according to 46:07 Dahlan Iskan. Well, although 46:10 theoretically it’s easy, Brother Hi. 46:14 Three days ago in Kompas, I read about 46:17 a young professor from UI, maybe a 46:19 junior of Zul’s, a woman, who 46:21 simulated how to reach 8%. First, 46:26 banking credit growth is increased from 46:28 the current 15%to 18%. I read that, yes 46:32 . Job creation, which is 2%, is raised 46:35 to 3%in absorption. Then, one more 46:39 thing, investment, which was previously 46:42 only 5.6%. Becomes 7.8%. Then, 46:48 optimization of the green economy with 46:51 carbon trading and the like. But also 46:55 the blue economy—our seas are vast— 46:57 and the digital economy. Now, those 47:00 studies can be carried out, but as 47:02 mentioned, it really comes down to 47:05 strong leadership. There is one short 47:10 story I read in Lee Kuan Yew's book 47:13 about a fire in Jurong; 12,000 people 47:16 lost their homes, and if it had been 47:19 left to the market, many would have 47:22 bought it up. But after that, the 47:25 community wouldn't have been able to 47:26 buy. That’s why Lee Kuan Yew 47:30 immediately created something like a 47:33 presidential decree, and it was bought 47:35 by the state and sold to those 12,000 47:38 people at a price slightly above normal 47:41 . So they actually got nice renovations 47:44 , and the value increased slightly. 47:47 Well, and it's affordable. That’s why 47:49 96%of Singaporeans own a home. So, when 47:53 you think about, uh, a dictator or an 47:57 extraordinary leader. Just an ordinary 48:01 leader, but with ethics, good logic, 48:03 humility, and respect for the rules of 48:05 the game. Including what you mentioned, 48:09 Zul, we already have the new ASN law 48:11 from October 2023. Actually, it’s 48:13 more cross-sectoral. But indeed, when 48:15 there is no political will, even when 48:17 they understand—I met Mas Sudirman 48:20 Said, and Zul understands too—as Mas 48:22 Dahlan Said said, "It's enough to have 48:25 a good president who has ethics and 48:27 good logic. He will choose 50 good 48:29 ministers or heads of agencies. These 48:32 50 will find 500 good directors general 48:34 or echelon 1 equivalent officials. 48:36 These 500 will become 5,000 good 48:38 directors, orchestrated well. Indonesia 48:41 will advance. Hopefully, Mr. Prabowo 48:43 will do that well. As long as there is 48:47 truly a strong political will—and in 48:50 Indonesia, I am still sad, for example, 48:53 about the ministry where the corruption 48:55 case was completely exposed, the 48:58 Ministry of Agriculture at that time. 49:02 When I meet the directors general, what 49:04 are you doing? They have, uh, an 49:07 inspector general, investigators, PPNS, 49:10 and all sorts of things. But it just 49:12 blows right past them. So, without a 49:15 change in political will, 60%of the 49:17 work in a ministry is just serving one 49:20 minister. This is very dangerous. That 49:23 must be dismantled. That's it, Bang Ali 49:25 . Alright, thank you, Mr. Marani. Now, 49:32 Mr. Dahlan, we once tried to build 49:35 Batam, with the ambition of rivaling or 49:39 at least approaching Singapore as a 49:42 trade hub in the Strait of Malacca and 49:45 Southeast Asia. But it didn't succeed. 49:49 Why do you think that is? What are the 49:52 factors that kept Batam from succeeding 49:55 like Singapore? Even though, in terms 49:57 of support, we should be able to, as we 49:59 are a big country. 50:02 Mm, I don't know. I don't know. I’ve 50:04 forgotten it all. 50:09 Or Mr. Dahlan has, has already answered 50:12 that. 50:15 Bang Zul. If Bang Zul has an analysis. 50:19 Yeah. In my opinion, the approach must 50:22 also be systemic. Batam is under a 50:25 larger system that is not compatible 50:28 with what is done in Singapore. So, 50:33 that gives us a lesson or a strong 50:35 message that even if they are close, if 50:38 the people, traditions, and educational 50:41 cultures are different, the results 50:43 will also be different. 50:47 Hmm. I see Batam back then, why did it 50:50 fail? Because the Batam Authority was 50:54 sort of disbanded, it was like it was 50:56 disbanded even though it didn't fully 50:58 dissolve. But the principles, for 51:02 example, that only certain quality 51:05 people could come there, then the 51:07 infrastructure had to be a certain way, 51:10 all of that lost out to the macro 51:13 system that we are a democratic country 51:16 . It is the right of all Indonesians to 51:19 come to Batam; it is our homeland. And 51:22 since then, practically, well, Batam's 51:24 original vision was essentially 51:25 complete. Because if at that time Batam 51:30 had really been an authority as Mr. 51:33 Habibie wanted and truly restricted. In 51:37 fact, if necessary, I thought at that 51:39 time that Indonesians going to Batam 51:41 should even use passports. Well, that 51:44 would have worked, whereas our economic 51:48 growth is currently losing to 51:51 population growth. Meaning our growth 51:55 is being eroded by population growth. 51:58 Well, Batam is even more than that. 52:01 Because population growth in Batam 52:03 comes not only from births but also 52:05 from newcomers. And once people from 52:09 all over Indonesia come to Batam with 52:12 all their varied traits, then it's 52:15 really already over. It's impossible to 52:21 build economic growth in Batam that 52:24 wouldn't be consumed by population 52:27 growth. So, since the principles of an 52:32 authority that restricted Batam into a 52:36 special zone no longer exist, well, 52:39 it's basically over. Because it's 52:43 impossible for any region to have 52:47 economic growth that isn't eroded by 52:50 its population growth. Thank you. 52:55 Alright, thank you, Mr. Dahlan. Now 52:58 let's go to Rocky. One of the factors 53:02 previously studied by Luan is a strong 53:05 and clean government, right? Mr. Zul 53:09 also mentioned earlier that without a 53:12 clean and strong government, investors 53:14 wouldn't want to come and invest there. 53:18 Now, what do you think made LKY and 53:21 Singapore successful in building a 53:23 strong and clean government? But on the 53:27 other hand, there's information that 53:30 many Indonesian corruptors hide in 53:32 Singapore, right? How do you see this, 53:35 Rocky? 53:36 Yeah. Singapore doesn't care if they 53:38 are corruptors from Indonesia, as long 53:40 as they enter Singapore's rational 53:42 financial system. It's impossible for 53:44 them to be corrupt there, right? So 53:47 actually, it's our politics that 53:49 nurture these corruptors, not Singapore 53:52 . So they are still considered 53:54 Indonesian corruptors seeking a tax 53:57 haven in Singapore. Now, regarding 54:00 Batam, why couldn't Batam grow? Because 54:03 Batam should have been designed as a 54:05 market economy and ultimately become a 54:07 market society. Singapore is a small 54:10 city that is both a market economy and 54:12 a market society. Imagine Batam, for 54:14 instance, it's a market economy, but 54:17 what's present there are communities 54:19 like Batak merchant associations. 54:21 Chinese merchant associations, Sulawesi 54:24 merchant associations, right? So it 54:26 didn't transform into a market society; 54:28 culture matters. That's what causes 54:31 Batam to differ from the rational 54:32 quality of Singapore. That's one issue. 54:37 The second is Singapore's way of 54:40 pushing its growth, which didn't create 54:43 irrational Gini ratios. 54:46 So it didn't result in disparity. In 54:49 our country, once you push for 8%, for 54:52 example, the Gini ratio immediately 54:54 shows disparity. Because 8%only means 54:58 the 2%of the wealthy population can 55:00 grow by 8%, while those below are 55:01 definitely left behind. It's impossible 55:05 for MSME cooperatives to reach 8%growth 55:06 . Especially if forced too quickly, 55:10 it's like driving a rickshaw on a toll 55:12 road at 100 km/h; it would fall apart. 55:15 That’s the basic reality. But 55:18 sometimes, it is actually easy to 55:20 generate economic growth—just push it 55:23 . Yes. But that would cause, what do 55:26 you call it, an overheating economy. 55:31 Yes. That's exactly the issue. If we 55:34 want a more logical way, we could just 55:37 print money. If Mr. Jokowi or Mr. 55:40 Prabowo needs 800 trillion, just print 55:43 400 trillion for demand and 400 55:45 trillion for supply; problem solved. 55:48 But that leads to immediate inflation 55:51 because the Rupiah isn't used globally. 55:54 Our Rupiah is only valid until 55:56 Cengkareng. Once you leave Cengkareng, 55:58 the Rupiah holds no value. It's 56:00 different from the Singapore Dollar, 56:01 which is pegged in the global financial 56:03 market. That's roughly it. Now, let's 56:06 return to the question of what 56:08 guarantees that 8%growth in Indonesia 56:10 will result in political stability. 56:13 Let’s calculate the ecological 56:16 footprint of that 8%growth. That is the 56:19 core issue. 56:21 So, how much carbon is being produced? 56:23 It seems the government hasn't 56:25 calculated that. The government just 56:27 assumes 8%growth happens automatically. 56:29 Yes, but our oxygen levels decrease by 56:32 8%every minute we produce the supply 56:34 side, and that's not even counting the 56:37 demand side. So, our ability to 56:40 calculate ecology for the sake of the 56:42 economy has failed, and that hasn't 56:43 been addressed. Mr. Prabowo must prove 56:47 that 8%growth won't worsen the Gini 56:49 ratio or increase our ecological 56:51 footprint. Something like that. 56:55 Ready. Thank you, Mbok and Bang Zul. 57:00 Bang Zul, you mentioned that a key to 57:02 building the Indonesian economy is 57:04 industrialization. So, how do you see 57:06 Indonesia's current condition? The 57:10 problem with industrialization is that 57:12 some analysts say we are experiencing 57:14 deindustrialization. 57:16 Some say it's like that. So, what is 57:18 the focus to ensure industrialization 57:20 can truly develop in Indonesia? Well, 57:24 the driving force of industrialization 57:26 is technological innovation. Learning 57:30 this technology is not costless or 57:32 timeless; it takes a long, lengthy 57:34 process. And every industry has a 57:38 different technological trajectory. 57:42 Therefore, there must be an awareness 57:44 to start and consistency, for example, 57:46 in buying and supporting local products 57:48 . If the President and ministries don't 57:53 set the example, it's hard to achieve 57:55 genuine industrialization. Just imagine 58:00 , even for medical equipment in the 58:03 regions, there are so many brokers 58:05 pushing products made in China. At the 58:09 same time, Mr. Jokowi says to buy and 58:11 support local products. 58:13 Now, for instance, we want to upgrade 58:15 what we call...These local products 58:17 aren't easy to manage, sir. Dahlan, 58:20 when a product needs to be chosen by 58:22 agencies, it must go through the 58:24 e-catalog. And the process for local 58:27 products to get into the e-catalog is 58:29 also quite complicated. Especially 58:31 since local products are often 58:33 perceived as poor quality and more 58:34 expensive. If we don't discuss it with 58:38 the police, prosecutors, BPK, and BPKP, 58:40 we’ll be accused of causing state 58:43 losses. So, this industrialization must 58:46 be our shared spirit. And at the 58:48 beginning of Mr. Jokowi's 58:49 administration, I was among those 58:51 optimistic that buying and supporting 58:53 local products would become our shared 58:54 mantra. Then, for instance, 58:57 downstreaming in NTB itself has now 58:59 been proven. Thank God, we are grateful 59:02 that Mr. Jokowi is very serious, so we 59:05 now have a great smelter complex at PT 59:07 Amman. And in my opinion, this should 59:10 be appreciated, despite all its flaws 59:12 and weaknesses. What is being done with 59:14 downstreaming in the extractive 59:16 industry in NTB is happening. So, 59:19 thankfully, our SMEs are experiencing a 59:21 deepening of structure. There is 59:23 processing of traditional products, but 59:25 the large-scale industries are also 59:27 running. It's impossible to have 59:30 industrialization, for example, without 59:32 Indonesia having proper industrial 59:33 machine tools. But currently, Indonesia 59:36 has no industry for machine tools. How 59:39 can we talk about industrialization? If 59:41 we talk about industrialization, 59:43 everywhere in the world—from the UK, 59:45 America, to Japan—it always starts 59:47 with the machinery industry. Now, if 59:50 the machinery or machine tools industry 59:52 lacks a" mother machine, " 59:54 industrialization is impossible. So, 59:56 what's happening is deindustrialization 59:58 . We then mindlessly jumped to 1:00:01 industrialization 5.0, digital stuff, 1:00:03 and so on, after saying manufacturing 1:00:06 and industrialization weren't 1:00:08 developing. That's the next step. But 1:00:12 if we jump straight there without a 1:00:14 proper foundation, we will never 1:00:15 achieve industrialization. 1:00:18 Alright, thank you, Bang Zul, that is 1:00:20 very interesting. Okay, now to Mr. 1:00:23 Mardani. Mr. Mardani, uh, what is it? 1:00:28 Earlier, Mr. Dahlan, it was also 1:00:30 interesting, uh, seeing that in terms 1:00:33 of education, perhaps we will have more 1:00:36 religious education, or what else was 1:00:38 it, social studies and such. Indonesian 1:00:43 society on social media is known for 1:00:46 being the most, uh, noisy with comments 1:00:50 related to social, political, and 1:00:53 religious issues. But we are very far 1:00:57 behind in terms of economics, science, 1:00:59 and technology. So, what about the 1:01:02 structure? And I totally agree, when we 1:01:05 talk about development, it must be 1:01:07 broken down: how about the human 1:01:08 resources and the education? According 1:01:11 to you, Mr. Mardani, what kind of 1:01:13 education and human resource 1:01:14 development structure should be 1:01:16 prioritized by the new government? Yes, 1:01:20 Bang Haldi, one of the roots is that, 1:01:24 uh, there are no stupid students, only 1:01:28 teachers who are incapable of making 1:01:31 lessons interesting. Mathematics is 1:01:35 always a nightmare. 1:01:37 There are only teachers who are 1:01:37 clueless. So, the, uh, the keyword is 1:01:47 indeed the teacher; back in Soekarno's 1:01:49 era, Dahlan understood better, you 1:01:51 couldn't become a teacher unless you 1:01:53 were the best student. And the 1:01:57 incentives to become a teacher are real 1:02:00 ; in Malaysia, for example, if you're 1:02:03 not a teacher, housing loans are 4%, 1:02:05 but if you're a teacher, it’s 2%, so 1:02:08 for teachers, you really are a very 1:02:11 special profession. Nowadays, if it’s 1:02:14 not ITB or UI, then maybe a teaching 1:02:16 college like IKIP or UNJ is the choice. 1:02:19 In the end, if the teacher stumbles, 1:02:20 the students will surely fall. The 1:02:23 difficulty is why we can't concentrate 1:02:25 on STEAM, you know, Science, Technology 1:02:27 , Engineering, and Math. Because from 1:02:31 elementary school, the math isn't 1:02:34 strong, and that’s about logic, right 1:02:37 . Because of that, we really need to 1:02:41 improve, not just what Nadiem has 1:02:45 already started with the Merdeka 1:02:48 curriculum and all that. But with the 1:02:52 Organizational Mobilization Program and 1:02:55 the teacher driving programs, it's huge 1:02:58 , 50 million plus, five times the 1:03:01 population of Singapore, our students 1:03:04 from kindergarten to college. This is a 1:03:08 massive undertaking. But again, a 1:03:10 massive undertaking becomes easier if 1:03:12 you have good teachers. That’s why, 1:03:16 according to an Arabic saying, it’s 1:03:19 about the teacher and the book. The 1:03:23 book is the curriculum, or nowadays, 1:03:25 books are easy. The internet is the 1:03:27 largest library in the world. That’s 1:03:30 just how it is. You can ask ChatGPT 1:03:33 anything, it knows it all, and so on. 1:03:36 We can learn anything there, but we 1:03:39 still need a teacher. And a teacher 1:03:42 nowadays isn't at the front, but at the 1:03:44 center. They can be at the center, but 1:03:47 they must still have the character to 1:03:48 be respected and emulated, Aldi. 1:03:54 Alright, thank you, Mr. Marani. Now to 1:03:56 Mr. Dahlan. Mr. Dahlan, you were once 1:03:58 the Minister of SOEs, right? And 1:04:01 perhaps one that we could hope to be a 1:04:04 model or the best organization is the 1:04:07 SOE, because they have the financial 1:04:10 capability and some markets are even 1:04:12 monopolies. So, how do you think our 1:04:18 SOEs can level up to become world-class 1:04:21 companies, like what Singapore did, so 1:04:25 it could potentially boost economic 1:04:28 growth in other sectors? 1:04:33 Well, I am actually anti-SOE. I still 1:04:37 don't know why I became the Minister of 1:04:38 SOEs. Even though I knew I didn't agree 1:04:42 with that kind of economy. Because very 1:04:47 advanced Western countries don't have 1:04:49 SOEs, yet they are very successful. So 1:04:53 when I became the Minister, my target 1:04:55 was one thing: no SOE should receive 1:04:57 money from the state. And I proved that 1:05:01 during my time, no SOE received money 1:05:04 from the state. What they call State 1:05:06 Capital Injection (PMN), that’s just 1:05:08 a game. Mr. Marani knows that, it’s a 1:05:10 game between the House of 1:05:11 Representatives and the SOEs, that’s 1:05:12 how they work together. That is why the 1:05:15 House of Representatives was incredibly 1:05:17 hostile toward me, because I forbade 1:05:19 all state-owned enterprises (SOEs) from 1:05:21 receiving state capital injections (PNM 1:05:24 ), since SOEs should be working for the 1:05:26 state. Why should the state work for 1:05:28 the SOEs? Exactly. Well, things changed 1:05:33 later because as time went on, and now 1:05:36 it has returned to the way it was, 1:05:39 where all SOEs receive PNM and so on. 1:05:44 Actually, the best approach, if we look 1:05:48 at China initially, was the 1:05:51 privatization of SOEs. Millions of SOEs 1:05:55 were handed over to the people, handed 1:05:58 over to the management. Only specific 1:06:01 SOEs were kept as state property. 1:06:03 That’s how it was. But you might say 1:06:06 that in Singapore, all SOEs are also 1:06:08 thriving, right? That’s fine; as for 1:06:12 me, it is up to them whether to use 1:06:13 SOEs or not, it makes no difference to 1:06:15 me. But it is interesting to ask 1:06:19 whether these SOEs contribute 1:06:21 significantly to the country. In my 1:06:25 opinion, they are not as big as...well, 1:06:28 not as big as private enterprises. What 1:06:32 I mean is, for instance, to achieve 8% 1:06:34 growth, bank credit must be increased. 1:06:37 Eighteen percent. 1:06:38 Right now, bank credit is being 1:06:40 exhausted by SOEs. So, the allocation 1:06:44 for the private sector is becoming 1:06:46 smaller. Now, if bank credit is 1:06:50 increased, who does it go to? To the 1:06:53 SOEs again, yes. It just keeps 1:06:55 circulating in that same loop. As a 1:06:57 result, liquidity in the community is 1:07:00 decreasing because the credit 1:07:02 previously meant for the private sector 1:07:05 is reduced since it’s all taken by 1:07:07 SOEs. That’s one. Second, the private 1:07:11 businesses that do get credit now 1:07:14 are seeing their repayment terms 1:07:16 tightened or enforced by the banks. So, 1:07:20 that is why liquidity is decreasing. 1:07:23 Third, taxes and all this money flow 1:07:25 into the state, and once it goes to the 1:07:28 state, it is difficult for it to 1:07:29 circulate back into the community. So, 1:07:32 in my opinion, the best thing for SOEs 1:07:35 is to go 100%public immediately. That 1:07:39 is the best move, to take them 100% 1:07:43 public, maybe leaving only three banks 1:07:48 or something similar. I apologize that 1:07:53 I cannot give a good answer, because 1:07:54 fundamentally, I am not really in favor 1:07:57 of the existence of SOEs. Thank you. 1:08:01 Alright, thank you, Mr. Dahlan, now 1:08:03 over to Bang Zul. Perhaps before our 1:08:06 closing statement, as someone who was a 1:08:08 regional head for the past five years 1:08:10 and is a candidate for the future, what 1:08:12 are some examples of programs that are 1:08:14 appropriate for a regional scale? It is 1:08:18 different from the national scale for 1:08:19 the central government, isn't it? What 1:08:22 are some examples of strategic programs 1:08:24 for the regions that can boost economic 1:08:26 growth, suitable for the conditions in 1:08:28 Indonesia with all its fiscal 1:08:30 limitations and so on? Bang Zul? If we 1:08:35 look at it, there is no choice but to 1:08:37 invest in areas like education, and 1:08:39 then industrialization to catch up with 1:08:42 technological advancements, among other 1:08:44 things. But in everyday life, if we 1:08:48 look closely, since we often go to the 1:08:50 grassroots, people are concerned about 1:08:52 inflation control, specifically how the 1:08:54 prices of basic necessities can be kept 1:08:56 from burdening housewives. Our farmers 1:09:00 are still struggling with the 1:09:01 fertilizer distribution system, which 1:09:03 has seen no improvement from the past 1:09:05 until now. So, the issue of clean water 1:09:08 availability is now a serious problem 1:09:09 in various regions. Therefore, besides 1:09:13 strategic programs like education and 1:09:15 strengthening the industrial base, we 1:09:18 must address the daily problems faced 1:09:20 by the people. How to handle 1:09:24 unemployment, find immediate solutions, 1:09:27 overcome poverty, and so on. I think 1:09:30 that needs to run in parallel, from the 1:09:33 very simple to the very complicated 1:09:36 issues we face daily, and it's not just 1:09:38 one model or one approach; we use 1:09:40 everything, just be pragmatic like 1:09:43 Singapore, just be pragmatic. The point 1:09:47 is, whatever the cat, what matters is 1:09:48 that it can catch mice, that's roughly 1:09:50 it. Shopping, then. Yes, 1:09:56 I have one intriguing question, thank 1:09:58 you. Now, let's go to Ms. Roki. Ms. 1:10:01 Roki Lianu, it's said that one can be 1:10:03 like Pak Harto, 30 years and Singapore 1:10:05 could progress. Is it possible for 1:10:09 Indonesia to progress like Singapore 1:10:11 with only two presidential terms? Don't 1:10:13 tell me Mr. Jokowi really wants three 1:10:15 or four terms. What do you think, Ms.? 1:10:19 Progress or regress depends on the 1:10:21 president's mindset, that's what it's 1:10:23 about. But there is also a design that 1:10:27 should be formalized. I just read a 1:10:30 book titled The New China Playbook by 1:10:35 Keyu Jin. Even the subtitle of the book 1:10:39 is Beyond Capitalism and Socialism. 1:10:41 Like that. It is truly excellent at 1:10:43 explaining that many people do not 1:10:45 understand China. As if there were no 1:10:47 competition. In fact, it's at the local 1:10:49 level. Even local state-owned 1:10:51 enterprises are made to be competitive. 1:10:55 So competition is the basis of growth, 1:10:57 not state-owned enterprises as the 1:10:59 basis for growth. The function of 1:11:00 state-owned enterprises is distribution 1:11:02 , not accumulation. Our constitutional 1:11:03 design is meant to be that way. So if 1:11:05 we want to rely on state-owned 1:11:07 enterprises, it means from the start we 1:11:10 are turning to statism, whose 1:11:12 rationality cannot be accounted for. We 1:11:15 don't know, if we calculate the supply 1:11:16 and demand, how state-owned enterprises 1:11:18 determine supply needs or demand needs; 1:11:20 it's decided by politicians, right? So 1:11:24 actually, leave it to the market, even 1:11:25 at the local level, but China has 1:11:27 succeeded in bringing competition to 1:11:29 life, even at the local level. Now, in 1:11:32 Indonesia, at the local level, there 1:11:34 are MSMEs, which are essentially the 1:11:35 pariahs of the Indonesian economy. 1:11:38 Mentally, when hearing MSME, what is 1:11:40 that? MSMEs are just left to beg for 1:11:43 CSR from corporations, really. So this 1:11:46 mentality must be removed first, that a 1:11:49 rational economic being naturally wants 1:11:52 fair competition. So fair competition 1:11:56 has nothing to do with capitalism. 1:11:58 Because the basis of human competition 1:12:00 is what creates growth. So I want to 1:12:02 return to that thesis, that Mr. Prabowo 1:12:05 must generate fair competition, and 1:12:07 that can only be done if the" rational 1:12:10 animal "is ensured to be a creature 1:12:12 that wants to invigorate the economy, 1:12:14 not one that wants to plunder it. So we 1:12:18 actually have a problem with the 1:12:19 character of our economy, and that 1:12:21 character should be the priority for 1:12:23 President Prabowo to prune, down to the 1:12:25 regional level. Now, Bang Zul actually 1:12:28 has a good idea, but unfortunately, he 1:12:31 is in NTB. He must become the Governor 1:12:34 of DKI because of his ability to think. 1:12:37 Yes, I see there is Ridwan Kamil, but 1:12:40 Ridwan Kamil, well, the potential to be 1:12:43 won by PKS is fine. But actually, 1:12:46 someone who is incapable of thinking 1:12:49 about the future should be disqualified 1:12:52 in DKI. Ridwan Kamil isn't capable of 1:12:54 seeing the consequences of becoming the 1:12:57 Governor of DKI. It's not me, Kang Emil 1:12:59 ; I also helped him. But the idea of 1:13:02 finding competition is what is more 1:13:04 important. Jakarta is a business city 1:13:07 filled with competition, not just 1:13:09 distribution, but PKS has already 1:13:11 chosen that, and if it could still be 1:13:13 changed, I would propose that Zul be 1:13:14 the one to run. 1:13:19 Solid. We will escort Bang Zul soon 1:13:23 from NTB to the palace. Uh. 1:13:26 Yes, I want Zul's name to be in the 1:13:28 competition in 2029. 1:13:30 That's it. Ready to escort. Alright, 1:13:34 ladies and gentlemen, our speakers 1:13:37 tonight are all heavyweights. 1:13:40 With the theme of how we learn from 1:13:43 leadership in Singapore. The leaders 1:13:48 and speakers tonight reviewed it very 1:13:51 straightforwardly because the speakers 1:13:54 also practice what we are discussing 1:13:56 every day. And hopefully, this can be 1:14:00 an inspiration for Indonesia. Before we 1:14:02 end this discussion tonight, each 1:14:06 speaker 1:14:07 is invited to give a closing statement 1:14:09 or closing ideas. Pak Mardani, please. 1:14:11 Closing ideas. I always quote" 1:14:16 everything rises and falls on 1:14:17 leadership. "Yes, everything rises and 1:14:19 falls because of leadership. And 1:14:21 leadership has three aspects. One, 1:14:23 having integrity. Meaning he has 1:14:26 finished with himself, and truly thinks 1:14:28 a lot about others outside himself. 1:14:32 Second, he dares to make decisions, a 1:14:35 risk-taker, because life is only once. 1:14:41 And third, whatever decision he makes, 1:14:43 he uses as a foundation for continuous 1:14:46 improvement responsibly. Integrity, 1:14:49 courage, and responsibility are things 1:14:52 we must build together, Bang Ali. 1:14:55 Wow, that's wise. Pak, now Pak Mardani 1:15:01 has to be wise. 1:15:05 He has always been wise from the start. 1:15:10 Alright, now Bang Zul, please give your 1:15:12 closing statement, Bang. I encourage 1:15:16 Pak Mardani so that PKS remains 1:15:18 spirited, don't get complacent, because 1:15:21 our political machine for 2029 must be 1:15:25 accelerated 1:15:26 starting from now, and never give up in 1:15:29 the struggle. 1:15:33 Stand-up comedy. 1:15:35 Wow, this isn't a comedy show. 1:15:41 Pak Dahlan, please, Pak Dahlan. 1:15:45 Actually, what makes me most sad is why 1:15:48 the middle class is declining. We must 1:15:53 all regret that together. 1:15:56 Actually, the main task of the 1:15:58 president is how to increase the number 1:16:00 of the middle class. Because those who 1:16:04 will build Indonesia, who will make 1:16:07 Indonesia advanced, are them; right now 1:16:10 , let's say there are about 110 or 120 1:16:12 million people who are no longer poor. 1:16:16 I am not saying they are rich, just no 1:16:19 longer poor. And those 110 to 120 1:16:21 million people were once poor, and they 1:16:24 never want to be poor again because 1:16:27 they know what poverty feels like. 1:16:30 Actually, these 110 million people are 1:16:32 the ones who make Indonesia progress. 1:16:35 Like it or not, we must progress. 1:16:39 Whoever the president is, whichever 1:16:40 party wins, it doesn’t matter. The 1:16:43 important thing is that these 120 1:16:46 million people must increase; if 1:16:48 possible, to 160 million in 10 years. 1:16:52 If that is achieved, whoever the 1:16:54 president is becomes unimportant. 1:16:57 Because they are the ones who will 1:16:58 force Indonesia to progress, as they 1:17:00 never want to be poor again. They will 1:17:04 work hard on how not to be poor anymore 1:17:06 , how to advance even further. It is a 1:17:09 pity that their numbers have declined 1:17:11 over the last 10 years. That is very 1:17:14 sad. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Dahlan. 1:17:18 And lastly, Ms. Rocky, please provide 1:17:20 your closing ideas. 1:17:21 Yes, that is Mr. Dahlan's hope. But I 1:17:24 actually arrived late to this webinar 1:17:27 because I was previously attending a 1:17:29 webinar with young people, those we 1:17:32 call the" potential leaders of the next 1:17:35 Indonesia, "and they think it is better 1:17:37 for them to spend their money today 1:17:40 than to wait for uncertain economic 1:17:42 changes ahead. So they have joined, and 1:17:46 if you read the taglines of young 1:17:47 people today, it is desperate, as if 1:17:49 there is no hope left. Now, this is 1:17:53 what we must address: if these young 1:17:55 people no longer have hope and think," 1:17:57 carpe diem, enjoy today, who knows 1:17:59 about tomorrow, the future is not ours, 1:18:01 "our leaders do not want to understand 1:18:03 that. So our lives are increasingly 1:18:09 determined by the politics of hope. And 1:18:13 we place that politics of hope on those 1:18:15 who are knowledge-based. So, if Mr. 1:18:18 Jokowi or Mr. Prabowo's cabinet is 1:18:21 announced, there is a chance for these 1:18:24 young people to think," Okay, there is 1:18:26 hope ahead. "But it seems the 1:18:29 composition of the current cabinet 1:18:31 isn't a cabinet of experts, but rather 1:18:32 filled with politicians. So these young 1:18:35 people will think," How can there be 1:18:37 hope if politicians control the cabinet 1:18:38 ? "That is the point. Especially since 1:18:41 elements of dynasties are still being 1:18:43 touched upon. So I believe we must 1:18:46 trust that even if Mr. Jokowi or Mr. 1:18:49 Prabowo might continue the idea of 1:18:52 competitiveness—and I read recently 1:18:55 that in Malaysia, the young people's 1:18:58 GDP, their GNP per capita, is already 1:19:02 ...While we are only at 4,500. So, who 1:19:06 will enjoy the demographic bonus in 1:19:08 Indonesia? Yes, the young people from 1:19:10 Malaysia will come here to fill 1:19:11 positions in infrastructure, startups, 1:19:12 and everything else. So I think we need 1:19:15 to change our social base; hope must be 1:19:17 generated, and hope can only be 1:19:19 generated by leaders, not dealers. 1:19:23 Thank you. 1:19:24 Lastly, I... 1:19:28 Thank you, it’s already 11:00 here. 1:19:30 Yes. Please go ahead. Thank you to all 1:19:33 the speakers, and as a closing, I would 1:19:36 like to reiterate the closing ideas of 1:19:40 Bung Rocky that a leader must be able 1:19:43 to provide hope. Yes, we shall see if 1:19:45 that hope can truly grow for all the 1:19:47 people of Indonesia, for the younger 1:19:49 generation. So that those building our 1:19:53 economy and nation are not just relying 1:19:55 on leaders, but on young people and all 1:19:57 citizens who have the hope to rise 1:19:58 independently. based on their trust in 1:20:02 their leaders. Thank you, our speakers 1:20:06 and all the loyal viewers of InStal. 1:20:08 See you on the next Indusal Stok 1:20:10 program at the same time and on the 1:20:12 same channel. Peace be upon you, and 1:20:13 Allah's mercy and blessings. 
