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0:03 TV. 0:07 >> Hello. Peace be upon you, Bang Toni. 0:13 >> And peace be upon you too, Mas Angga. 0:16 >> How are you? Are you healthy today, 0:18 Bang Toni? Are your lungs okay? 0:20 >> I'm healthy, praise be to God. Fit and 0:22 healthy. 0:24 >> They say you can still breathe fresh 0:26 air in Jakarta, right? Unlike in other 0:28 regions. 0:32 >> Yes, yes, yes. 0:34 >> Bang Toni, we are going to highlight a 0:35 few things, Bang Toni. Of course, this 0:37 is a trending topic and a hot issue in 0:41 recent weeks regarding forest fires, 0:44 spreading to various matters. Even 0:49 starting from the President's speech 0:52 and also up to the matter of oligarchs 0:56 in Singapore, right? Because Singapore, 0:59 the Singaporean government in this case 1:01 , has shown an attitude that has caught 1:03 the public's attention. Then it's 1:07 linked to what's actually going on with 1:10 those oligarchs in Singapore, most of 1:12 whose names are Indonesian, in relation 1:14 to the forest fires. Then President 1:18 Prabowo also had a term for handling 1:22 these forest fires, he called it " 1:25 ecological terrorism." Wow, there is 1:28 such a thing as ecological terrorism. 1:30 The public is worried, Bang Toni, about 1:33 the impact of the climate crisis. There 1:37 are forest fires, there will also be 1:40 the climate crisis, spreading to how it 1:42 affects the cost of living. And this is 1:47 also linked to the handling of forest 1:49 fires and the performance of the 1:51 Prabowo administration over these 2 1:54 years. Actions taken by students taking 1:59 to the streets, raising issues about 2:02 welfare, education, poverty, and also 2:05 the environment that is currently being 2:09 highlighted. Not to mention other 2:13 actions that have also grabbed public 2:15 attention. Greenpeace's action at a 2:18 statue in Jakarta that turned yellow. 2:22 It eventually caused pros and cons as 2:24 usual. Eventually, the argument over 2:27 the pros and cons was about criticizing 2:30 the government, but they forgot the 2:33 focus on handling the main problem in 2:36 this country. So the public seems 2:40 distracted. They should be focused on 2:44 criticizing the government so that the 2:46 handling of these forest fires is more 2:48 serious. How does Bang Toni see the 2:54 impact and everything related to the 2:57 political communication of the 3:00 officials? This forest fire issue is in 3:04 the spotlight, right? Some are 3:06 panicking, some are stuttering, some 3:09 are, uh, what's it called, 3:12 >> rhetorical. There are also those who 3:16 don't want to be bothered, avoiding all 3:19 those questions, even to the point of 3:21 running away. How do you, Bang Toni, 3:26 see the competence of these officials 3:28 when problems fall under their 3:29 responsibility when they have to speak 3:32 in front of the public? Bang Toni, 3:35 these are the domestic matters that we 3:38 want to get your perspective on, Bang 3:40 Toni. How should you start, Bang Toni? 3:43 Where from? Well, this issue is still 3:47 forest fires, these fires are like an 3:50 annual ritual, every year it happens, 3:54 there's an uproar, every year it's 3:56 burned again, another uproar. Now, 4:00 there are a number of companies that 4:02 have been clearly mentioned. Those 4:05 companies A, B, C, D, number 1 to 4:07 number C-so-and-so, there is no firm 4:09 enforcement against them either. What 4:13 the media often shows instead is, uh, a 4:19 middle-aged person or someone 40 or 30 4:23 years old, thin, then dragged around, 4:29 uh, 4:30 >> becoming a suspect for forest burning 4:33 and so on. And this is just a spectacle 4:37 , and our society is one that is easily 4:40 forgetful. 4:42 >> Yes. 4:43 >> That issue just fades away and then 4:46 it's finished, you know. Yes. 4:48 Especially since it is easily countered 4:52 by peripheral issues, yes, uh, side 4:55 issues, issues that are actually not 4:59 fundamental or, uh, not essential to, 5:02 uh, the fate of this nation. 5:08 >> But they often appear and shift the 5:11 focus away from more fundamental issues 5:14 . So, Mas Angga, uh, this is actually a 5:22 good momentum for Mr. Prabowo, yes, to 5:26 restore public trust. 5:28 >> Hm. 5:31 >> This is a chance for Mr. Prabowo to 5:35 boost his electability, yes. Regardless 5:42 of the controversy of whether to 5:43 believe it or not, there are two survey 5:45 institutions, yes, that I think are 5:47 quite credible. One did not publish, 5:50 the other did. Mr. Prabowo's 5:52 electability is below 10%. 5:56 >> In this context, public trust in Mr. 5:59 Prabowo is essentially finished. So he 6:02 needs to find a way, 6:04 >> yes, to restore public trust. If the 6:07 public then trusts him, yes, then 6:10 optimism will emerge. If optimism 6:13 emerges, yes, then hope for Mr. Prabowo 6:16 will rise. 6:16 >> Hm. 6:17 >> Right now, it keeps dropping, and 6:19 dropping, and dropping. Now, this is a 6:22 quite good opportunity in my opinion, 6:25 there is a sufficient moment; make this 6:28 an momentum to restore public trust. 6:31 How? Just do it. All the companies 6:36 involved, just act. Tell the public 6:40 about A, B, C, D. This is the area 6:45 where this company has committed sins, 6:47 yes. The modus operandi is like this. 6:49 They did it like this. This company B, 6:52 this is the violation they committed, C 6:55 , bring them to court, shake up 6:56 Indonesia. 6:58 >> Hm. 6:59 >> It's okay to shake it up first. Just 7:01 like the Constitutional Court decision 7:02 yesterday, it was quite a shock, right? 7:04 >> Let there be an uproar first, 7:06 >> yes, let there be an uproar, shake 7:08 things up first, so that later there 7:10 might be a relaxation in the sense that 7:13 there is a punishment but the 7:14 punishment isn't maximal, or 7:16 compensated by a fine for example, 7:18 there's no problem. 7:20 >> H 7:21 >> rather than nothing at all, yes. Uh, if 7:26 this is done by Mr. Prabowo, A, B, C, D 7:28 up to dozens of companies are announced 7:30 directly: "These are your sins, you 7:32 burned this much, the land is here, the 7:34 coordinates are here, the modus is like 7:37 this." This company B, "You did this, 7:41 this, and this; your company has done 7:43 so much, you added more, the position 7:46 is here." So, give an explanation to 7:50 the public, open information to the 7:52 public that you are accused, that 7:54 eventually you are the defendant, and 7:57 later it will end in civil court, yes. 8:02 For example, if the director or the 8:04 deputy director or some other 8:06 department receives criminal punishment 8:08 , and then there are civil fines, right 8:11 ? That, for sure, firstly, take firm 8:16 action, yes, carry out clear law 8:19 enforcement, yes. Secondly, save this 8:24 country from these state assets that 8:26 are being burned by them. Wow, that's 8:29 really cool. 8:30 >> Really cool. If this is done by Mr. 8:34 Prabowo, I am 100%or even 1000%sure 8:36 that the public level will rise, which 8:39 will ultimately increase his 8:41 electability. Don't get me wrong with 8:44 KDM. 8:45 >> Seriously? 8:48 >> Mr. Prabowo should just go there and 8:49 see the houses, for example, why do I 8:51 have to be the one to tell him? I am 8:54 actually an outsider, but okay, for the 8:56 sake of the nation and the country, 8:58 people around him should be the ones 9:00 telling him. Mr. Prabowo comes to that 9:04 place, the affected community, Mr. 9:06 Prabowo just wears a mask and comes 9:08 there and greets them, maybe a video, 9:10 right? "Please, help resolve this," 9:14 followed up and then coming to the burn 9:17 site and so on. I am sure if this is 9:21 done by Mr. Prabowo, it would be really 9:25 , really cool. Really cool, you know. 9:29 Ah, steps like these are something that 9:32 is not usually done by the president, 9:34 both Mr. Prabowo and previous 9:36 presidential leaders. If Mr. Prabowo 9:41 starts this, it will become a sort of 9:43 jurisprudence; in legal terms, it will 9:46 become a reference for future 9:48 presidents and officials to take action 9:50 . So, whoever the official is, 9:53 especially regarding forestry, they 9:56 should be alert, right? What about the 9:59 Minister of Forestry? Many have already 10:01 demanded it. 10:01 >> Hm. He should be held responsible; when 10:07 this drags on for a long time without 10:09 any handling, replace that minister. 10:14 Yes. 10:14 >> Ah, so there are three things that Mr. 10:16 Prabowo can do. One, take firm action 10:20 against the perpetrators, then second, 10:23 announce it to the public. Then third, 10:26 fire the minister if you want to add 10:28 more. Fifth, Mr. Prabowo goes there, if 10:31 it's considered a gimmick, no problem. 10:33 He really does need to show up. 10:36 >> Yes. There is a term, what is it called 10:39 , Guy Debord, it's called the " 10:41 spectacle" theory. Spectacle is 10:45 shifting from "having" to "appearing." 10:49 Appearing is showing yourself in 10:51 politics, which is based on what, 10:54 digitalization, right? Mr. Prabowo must 10:58 appear often, but appearing doesn't 10:59 need many words. Just two or three 11:02 sentences is enough. If it is too long, 11:05 there is a lot of, well, a lot of 11:07 forgetting, you know. Ultimately, when 11:11 speaking to the public like when 11:13 speaking in a private space, Mr. 11:15 Prabowo often forgets. 11:18 >> That there is a mic, there is a camera 11:19 in front, there is an audience, Mr. 11:21 Prabowo forgets. 11:23 >> Yes, he considers it a private 11:25 conversation and then chats like this, 11:28 if I... 11:30 >> I met him, you know, I told him, Mr. 11:33 Prabowo, you can't do it like that; 11:35 this is what causes blunders, and it's 11:37 not even substantial, the things that 11:39 actually lead to these blunders. Well, 11:43 this is the actual inner circle. So, if 11:46 you want to do it now, it's just 11:47 Singapore that feels benefited by it, 11:49 and then when they get slightly 11:50 disadvantaged, they start shouting. 11:52 >> Hm. 11:53 >> Ah. Second, second point, Mas Angga, 11:56 about the Composite Index (IHSG) that 11:57 had crashed, right? 11:59 >> Yes. Yes. Like this. 12:03 >> Just like this, right. Uh, when the 12:06 Composite Index, it’s like this. Uh, 12:12 cases like this have existed long 12:13 before, during Mr. SBY's time, it was 12:16 already there. 12:19 >> Those reckless companies, those errant 12:21 issuers. 12:22 >> Yes, yes, yes. 12:22 >> During Mr. Jokowi's time, there were 12:24 many. Why is there such an uproar 12:27 during Mr. Prabowo's time? 12:31 >> The issue here is not a substantive one 12:33 . 12:34 >> But a communication issue. The 12:39 Composite Index is like this: if, what 12:41 you call it, they also want to save the 12:43 global economy. 12:45 >> Hm. 12:46 >> Because if it's the Composite Index, 12:47 it's not just Indonesia. Investors are 12:50 not just Indonesians, not just domestic 12:52 investors, right? Foreign investors, 12:55 the value is huge, tens or even 12:57 hundreds of trillions if calculated 12:59 across all issuers. 13:01 >> Hm. 13:02 >> That could shake things up, but why was 13:05 it calm during Mr. SBY's time, calm 13:08 during what's his name, Mr. Jokowi's 13:11 time, and then...because the problem 13:13 isn't in... 13:15 >> Yes, the substance, perhaps the problem 13:18 is in the communication. The Financial 13:21 Services Authority (OJK) should come 13:23 and say, "Sir, there's a problem here, 13:25 there's a violation by this issuer, 13:26 this one, this one, A, B, C, D," point 13:28 it out, and then reprimand them. "Don't 13:32 go too far, fix this," you know, 13:33 silently. 13:36 >> But that's not happening; there is an 13:38 indicator that the communication is 13:40 deadlocked. What is the fact? When they 13:46 met after two days, Friday and Monday, 13:49 it crashed, right? Hm. 13:52 >> Yes, Tuesday it went up, even up to 5%, 13:55 whereas before it dropped to 15%but 13:58 closed at 8%, then Monday it dropped 4% 14:01 , Tuesday it went up after there was 14:03 communication, the point is the 14:06 communication. 14:10 >> But if communication is deadlocked, why 14:12 should I help? It's like, I'm coming to 14:16 meet you to say, "I want to help; these 14:19 are the reckless issuers, these 14:21 companies that are playing games," and 14:23 so on, right? Reprimand them, fix it, 14:27 reprimand them, fix it, even if they go 14:29 back to their old ways. But there were 14:31 no reprimands at that time, you know. 14:33 >> So Indonesia has the most flexible laws 14:35 , right. 14:35 >> The most flexible laws. So if the 14:38 ministry's excuse is that it's an 14:40 effect from...... 14:42 >> what do they call it, in Singapore, 14:44 right, does that mean the government is 14:46 dodging the issue or what, Bang Toni? 14:52 Yes, it will usually be, what do you 14:54 call it, part of, okay, part of the 14:56 variables, but it's probably not the 14:58 only variable. 15:01 >> It's like this, for example, if the 15:03 condition in Indonesia is not, the 15:05 situation is not conducive, I'm an 15:07 investor, for example, I have 1 15:09 trillion. 15:11 >> Yes. 15:11 >> The condition is unclear, where is 15:13 Indonesia being led to, you know. 15:17 >> Well, if it’s truly unclear, why 15:19 should I bother investing here? People 15:24 usually make their investment plans for 15:27 the next year around October or 15:29 November. 15:31 >> Hmm. 15:33 >> So, what does that mean? If the 15:36 situation provides no guarantees, isn't 15:38 safe, and isn't stable, then...There 15:41 are many variables that create, uh, 15:43 what? Many indicators that create, uh, 15:46 the potential for instability. Like 15:49 that. Wow, it would be a hassle if I 15:51 spend my money. 15:51 >> Hmm. 15:53 >> I’d rather look elsewhere. If other 15:55 places aren't conducive either, I’d 15:57 rather just save it than lose my money. 15:59 It’s as simple as that. 16:00 >> Yeah. 16:02 >> And Mas Angga, we should wait until 16:04 2027; this could become a time bomb. 16:08 Like that. 16:09 >> Hmm. Accumulated from last year and 16:14 massive this year, with rising 16:17 unemployment, low purchasing power, 16:20 companies collapsing, and many moving 16:23 —some to Vietnam, some to China. 16:29 >> Yeah, this accumulation by 2027—what 16:33 will happen to Indonesia's economic 16:35 condition? 16:38 >> Many people are already refusing to 16:40 invest. How can that be? Indonesia is a 16:42 huge market. 16:43 >> Everyone eats rice, everyone uses 16:45 motorcycles, right? 16:46 >> Yeah. Try comparing it to other places. 16:49 India might lose to Indonesia in terms 16:51 of the number of motorcycles, right? 16:52 There are no motorcycles, right? 16:54 >> Yeah. Except for cars; we lose to 16:56 America or other countries. But for 16:58 motorcycles, for instance, or food, 17:01 these 286 million Indonesians all eat 17:06 rice, 17:07 >> all eat bread, all drink or eat cheese; 17:10 this is an extraordinary market, not to 17:13 mention...Indonesians are consumeristic 17:18 , not to mention Indonesia's 17:20 extraordinarily abundant natural 17:22 resources; people flock to things— 17:24 even online gambling is popular, you 17:27 know. 17:28 >> Yeah, in Indonesia, even online 17:30 gambling is popular, right? 17:32 >> And then drugs, they sell well too; 17:34 what doesn't sell in Indonesia, you 17:36 know? 17:37 >> Yes, yes. 17:37 >> Yes. 17:39 >> Yeah, that’s what becomes, uh, the 17:41 consumption—why would people be 17:43 stupid not to invest in Indonesia? If 17:47 they are forced not to invest, it's 17:49 because the situation isn't conducive; 17:52 rather than losing money, it's better 17:54 to leave, right Mas Angga? Hmm. Right. 18:00 Then Bang Toni, what is your analysis 18:04 when the public asks what the 18:06 government is doing when disasters get 18:10 worse, life gets harder, and the 18:13 climate crisis isn't handled well? Now, 18:17 how about this, Bang Toni? These were 18:21 the voices from the protests yesterday, 18:23 Bang Toni, two years of Prabowo's 18:25 administration. How does Bang Toni 18:27 analyze it? 18:30 >> Well, we can analyze how they handled 18:33 the disasters in...Where? In Aceh. Then 18:40 , listeners in NTT. And so on. The 18:46 government seems to be fumbling in 18:48 handling this. 18:50 >> The cost of living, not to mention the 18:51 cost of living. 18:53 >> Yes. These are things that are 18:54 incidental, right? 18:55 >> They are incidental in nature, you see. 18:58 There are natural events that, well, 19:00 make the government seem unprepared or 19:03 caught off guard. We indeed don't have 19:09 a solid mechanism or standard SOP to 19:14 handle cases that are actually routine. 19:21 >> Yes. Every year there are earthquakes. 19:23 >> Hm. 19:25 >> Every year there is this. The 19:28 government should be mitigating the 19:30 potential for those disasters. For 19:34 example, landslides can be predicted 19:37 these days. 19:38 >> Hm. 19:40 >> Approximately, where will landslides 19:43 occur next year? 19:46 >> Hm. We can use satellites for that. Ah, 19:49 here is the potential landslide area. 19:51 If it slides, which communities would 19:54 be affected? Ah, that can be determined 19:58 . Then for potential earthquakes, even 20:02 though it's unclear when they'll arrive 20:05 , the fault lines are here, here, and 20:08 here. The potential impact on the 20:10 community is here. 20:11 >> Hm. 20:11 >> Ah. The community should be prepared to 20:15 build houses with standards ready for 20:17 earthquakes. For example, buildings 20:21 ready for earthquakes. Yes, that's 20:23 being proactive. If an earthquake 20:26 happens, roughly how high is the death 20:28 toll? How many are affected? If it's 20:33 seven on the Richter scale, eight on 20:35 the scale, and so on, it could at least 20:37 be mitigated. The government is often 20:41 caught off guard because their stance 20:43 is reactive. 20:45 >> One. The second is project-oriented. 20:48 >> Well, project-oriented. 20:50 >> Yes. Yes, project-oriented. Even 20:53 disasters are corrupted, how can that 20:55 be? 20:57 >> Like that. Even disasters are corrupted 20:59 . Hm. 21:00 >> We miss the unity of institutions, what 21:05 do you call them? Philanthropy. 21:09 >> Like the pioneer back then, which was 21:10 ACT. When there was an earthquake, 21:14 Basnas, ACT, and all those 21:16 philanthropic institutions were there 21:19 before the government, already having 21:23 tents and shelters. 21:26 >> Ah, ACT was finished off. Don't know by 21:29 whom, right? Yeah. It doesn't appear 21:32 anymore, right? Yes, these institutions 21:36 should be encouraged to advance, to 21:40 grow, and to be equipped so they can 21:44 collaborate in the future. Hm. Hm. 21:49 >> Indonesia is actually a country not 21:52 just run by the government; much is 21:56 also managed by the private sector— 21:59 private education, private hospitals, 22:03 and private entities that help manage 22:06 disasters. So many are involved, but 22:10 they work individually except when an 22:13 incident occurs. Hm. 22:14 >> If this were constantly synergized, 22:17 like education is from the beginning. 22:20 Likewise with social affairs; if they 22:23 were synergized from the start, I think 22:25 when an incident happens, we would be 22:29 >> Very well prepared, yes. The SOP then 22:33 runs well so the government doesn't 22:35 constantly become a punching bag every 22:37 time a problem arises, right? Being a 22:41 punching bag is fair because it's a 22:44 matter of incompetence or lack of order 22:47 , or the government's lack of 22:50 professionalism in handling every 22:52 problem that emerges, right. MBG was 22:56 heavily criticized and warned that it 22:58 could leak, it could leak, it could 23:00 leak, but it was ignored and in the end 23:02 , it got caught, right. Yeah. Yeah. 23:05 >> So, we're the ones having trouble. 23:07 Trouble. 23:08 >> Alright. 23:08 >> Well, there are many things that need 23:10 to be fixed. Must 23:11 >> be fixed. So, think about the macro and 23:14 the micro. The grand design is okay as 23:17 a vision, there is a mission. But these 23:20 programs won't be able to run according 23:23 to the route expected to lead to that 23:27 vision and mission. If the human 23:30 resources are not suitable, not right. 23:34 Then the supervision is not strict. 23:38 >> Hmm. 23:39 >> Like that. 23:40 >> Lastly, if the planners 'plans are also 23:42 not Lastly, Bang Toni, besides that, 23:47 the paradox in this country is 23:49 extraordinary, right? When the voices 23:54 of the public criticize the cost of 23:57 living, public services, and other 24:00 matters. Officials in this country 24:04 instead show off their luxury, you know 24:07 , and also show their arrogance. It 24:10 even reached the point where a netizen 24:14 trended a while ago for uploading a 24:17 story, posting about being reluctant to 24:20 pay taxes because the tax money is used 24:23 for officials' extravagance. Now, is 24:27 there any concern, Bang Toni? Recently 24:30 in France, there have been 24:31 extraordinary protests, you know. And 24:34 they are massive, not just students, 24:36 but school kids are out, workers are 24:38 out, to the point of threats of 24:39 boycotts spreading to several countries 24:41 . And what they are demanding are truly 24:44 the cost of living, public services, 24:46 and education. Is there a concern in 24:49 Indonesia that if the government 24:50 doesn't respond well to the recent 24:52 protests, bigger protests will emerge? 24:55 And paradoxically, the officials are 24:57 instead acting as if they are provoking 24:58 the people. How about it, Bang Toni, as 25:00 a closing remark? What is this paradox 25:02 covered with? 25:05 >> Yes, France is different from Indonesia 25:07 . The education level of the French 25:09 public is high. If education is high, 25:12 life is more rational. If life is 25:15 rational, that means they are more 25:16 sensitive to their rights. H 25:19 >> Their personal rights and the 25:20 government's obligations to them. That 25:23 starts from education. 25:24 >> H 25:25 >> Education services that are not 25:27 fulfilled properly. Eventually, that 25:30 triggers issues with other public 25:32 services, right. Including, what is it, 25:37 entering into life, you know, living 25:41 needs that are increasingly not met 25:45 properly. Because the war, from then 25:51 until now between Iran and America, has 25:55 truly drained global energy. Including 26:00 those affected is France. In Indonesia, 26:03 it's different. So, it's roughly like 26:07 this: if expectations in France are at 26:10 10, for example, we meet seven, they 26:13 get angry, they shout that there are 26:15 three points of their rights that were 26:18 not met. They get angry; they realize 26:22 even if eight are met and two are not. 26:24 They get angry, they protest because 26:26 they know what is not being fulfilled. 26:29 It’s different from Indonesia, you 26:31 see. The expectation is 10, right? If 26:34 only six are met and four are left, 26:36 people still don't realize it. 26:40 >> Hm. 26:42 >> Yeah, try to look at the severity, if 26:44 we then have issues with education, 26:46 education services are problematic 26:47 there. Is it worse in Indonesia than in 26:50 France or not? 26:51 >> Hm. 26:52 >> Yeah. It is worse in terms of 26:54 educational services. Even the 26:57 education budget is taken for other 26:59 things. 27:00 >> Hm. 27:01 >> And they can still smile. Try that in 27:04 France. 27:05 >> Smiling. Yes. Yes. 27:07 >> This is the budget directly. 27:08 >> Yes. True. 27:09 >> It's not that there's a budget 27:10 shortfall. The budget that was already 27:11 low is taken again. 27:12 >> Taking that. 27:14 >> Right? That's why I said in France, if 27:18 the public's expectation or their 27:19 rights are 10 and two are taken, they 27:21 get angry. 27:23 >> Because why? They know what is being 27:26 taken, what isn't being provided, just 27:29 like that. In Indonesia, well, there 27:32 are 10, right? If seven are taken and 27:35 three are left, they don't get angry, 27:37 you see. 27:40 >> Anger only happens if triggered by a 27:43 truly fundamental situation. Secondly, 27:48 it's utilized by parties that are 27:50 indeed accustomed to creating riots or 27:53 mobilizing the masses. 27:57 >> If it's just natural, it's not easy; if 27:59 it's organic, it's not easy, you see. 28:01 Indonesian society tends to be 28:02 indifferent, as long as I can eat. 28:04 >> Now, 28:05 >> not caring about other people, you know 28:08 . 28:08 >> So they need to be made aware. 28:09 >> It’s like this, you know. These are 28:11 other matters, yes. Aside from this, 28:13 there is Jalaluddin Rumi's analogy. 28:16 Jalaluddin Rumi coined a term like this 28:18 , a donkey, right. That donkey shouts 28:21 loudly if it is hungry. But if its 28:23 friend is not hungry, it stays quiet. 28:25 >> Just quiet. Hm. 28:27 >> Ah. Indonesian society, if they are 28:29 hungry, they shout, you see. 28:31 >> But if someone else is hungry, they 28:32 stay quiet. H. 28:33 >> Ah, that's how most of them are. Let's 28:37 try to imagine Gojek, this Gojek. 28:39 >> Yes. 28:40 >> Grab, right, right, how much of their 28:44 share is taken? 28:47 >> Yes, yes. 28:48 >> Very patient, you see. Then, they were 28:53 promised it would only be 8%, for 28:55 example, until now for motorcycles, it 28:57 hasn't happened, you see. 29:00 >> They just stay quiet too. He. 29:01 >> Even though Gojek clearly has militancy 29:04 . If someone drives a car and hits a 29:06 Gojek driver, you see. The one hit is 29:09 one person, but 1,000 people show up. 29:11 >> Yes. 29:12 >> Their solidarity is strong. 29:13 >> Solid. 29:14 >> Yes. Very solid. But when their rights 29:17 are taken in a hegemonic way, this is a 29:19 hegemonic process. If we borrow the 29:22 term from Krimsky, they just stay quiet 29:25 . 29:25 >> Yes. Yes. 29:27 >> Ah, I am not in the position to provoke 29:30 . No. But awareness and sensitivity are 29:34 born from a rational society that truly 29:38 understands its rights. For a society 29:42 that does not understand its rights, is 29:44 irrational, or whose education is 29:46 inadequate, they will not understand 29:49 their rights. If they don't understand 29:51 their rights, they aren't sensitive, 29:53 and ultimately, they won't offer any 29:55 resistance, unless they are organic 29:57 intellectuals. Yes, this provides 29:59 understanding. 30:00 >> And this requires a process. So the key 30:03 is education; the majority of 30:05 Indonesians should be university 30:08 graduates, at least above 20%. 30:11 >> The number of Indonesian graduates has 30:14 been stuck at 10%for a long time; even 30:16 since I was born, it was 10%, and it's 30:19 still 10%now. Yes, yes, yes. 30:22 >> It should have reached 30%—20%to 30% 30:25 would be great. Yes. Just look at 30:28 France, what is their percentage? Their 30:29 university graduates can be over 70%. 30:32 >> Yeah. 30:34 >> It’s natural that when one of their 30:36 rights is lost, they, uh, what do you 30:38 call it? Build solidarity to reclaim 30:42 that right. 30:44 >> For us, it's clearly being corrupted, 30:45 there are corruptors involved, right? 30:48 They commit corruption, go to prison, 30:50 and then even establish a political 30:51 party. Just imagine. 30:54 >> They corrupt, take our money—people's 30:58 money—are detained, then switch 31:01 parties, become House members, become 31:04 commission leaders, and so on. Yeah. 31:08 Huh. 31:08 >> Unique, right? Is this a phenomenon? 31:11 This is an irrational phenomenon. 31:13 >> Yes. Yes. But it happens, becoming a 31:16 fact that we see in Indonesia. Alright, 31:21 alright, Bang Toni. Any closing remarks 31:24 , Bang Toni? What are the things that 31:27 Bang Toni wants to remind us of? 31:28 Especially with National Santri Day 31:29 tomorrow. What does it mean to have 31:31 santri for this country? 31:33 >> Yes. For Santri Day tomorrow, right? Uh 31:37 , santri need to be, uh...cadres of the 31:43 nation. Those who have a, uh, level of 31:48 religiosity and integrity that is quite 31:51 good, who have the potential to be 31:54 expected to later participate in 31:57 leading this nation. Therefore, the 32:03 Islamic boarding schools (pesantren) 32:05 themselves must continue to modernize, 32:08 adjusting their syllabi, their cultural 32:11 traditions, and their educational 32:13 patterns to adapt to the demands of 32:16 modernity. Because, after all, 32:21 Indonesia was once managed by santri— 32:25 for instance, there were Wahid Hasyim, 32:29 Hasyim Asyari, then Dahlan, and other 32:32 figures who must be given, uh, 32:35 encouraged to prepare themselves to 32:39 take over the relay of this nation's 32:43 journey. 32:45 >> I 32:45 >> yes. Therefore, santri should be 32:48 prepared to study in the Netherlands, 32:51 for instance, or prepared to study in 32:53 America, or prepared to study in Europe 32:56 , in England, for example, in London, 32:59 right? Not everyone has to study in 33:03 Yemen, Egypt, or Saudi—that's good, 33:06 but they must, uh, broaden their 33:08 mindset so they don't only go to the 33:10 Middle East. But, uh, because after all 33:13 , currently those that are advanced are 33:15 Japan, those that are advanced are 33:17 Korea, those that are advanced are 33:19 China, those that are advanced are 33:20 America, and those that are advanced 33:22 are Western Europe. Send those students 33:24 , uh, over there, yes, with their, uh, 33:27 student background, uh, all their 33:29 knowledge and integrity, so that later 33:31 tomorrow they can return to manage this 33:33 nation better. Alright, alright, Bang 33:36 Toni. Thank you very much, Bang Toni, 33:38 for the dialogue this morning. I hope 33:41 we can meet again next week, God 33:43 willing. 33:44 >> Peace be upon you, and Allah's mercy 33:46 and blessings. 
