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0:08 Brail TV. 0:16 Peace be upon you, Bang Ihsanudin. 0:20 And peace be upon you too, Angga and 0:22 all Ril listeners as well as Radio TV 0:25 viewers. 0:26 You're doing well? 0:27 Alhamdulillah, God willing. Do you, 0:30 Bang Ihsanudin, count how many liters 0:33 of fuel you buy in a week? 0:38 Not really. 0:39 I see. You still like using Gojek? 0:42 That means if the country truly has 0:45 energy security... 0:46 Yeah. 0:47 People wouldn't have to do that. That 0:49 ... 0:50 If the situation is like that, it 0:52 reflects poor energy security. 0:55 Energy security has a four-part formula 0:57 . There are goods that can be... 1:00 There are goods that are available, 1:02 affordable, right? 1:04 Then they must be acceptable. 1:07 Then they must be accessible, that's 1:09 the 4A metric. 1:10 4A. 1:10 Now, if you have to queue, if the 1:12 prices are like this or like that, it 1:14 means energy security is poor. 1:16 Yes. Let's highlight the first point, 1:20 Bang Ihsanudin, as an opener. When the 1:24 news, I might call it dramatizing, says 1:28 the president will face difficult times 1:31 , that's what the media says. Whether 1:35 to raise it or not, right? Both options 1:38 have negative impacts; if it's not 1:40 raised, it's said that the budget will 1:44 collapse. Both are actually harmful. 1:46 What...A war of opinions is also 1:51 happening in the media between those 1:53 who agree with the fuel price hike and 1:56 those who don't. I want an explanation 2:01 from you, Bang Ihsanudin, as many 2:04 people claim there will be massive harm 2:08 —well, some do, some don't—many 2:11 argue that the harm will be great 2:15 because this fuel subsidy is no longer 2:18 professional or profitable. It has to 2:23 be increased even though the government 2:25 has already spent over 502 trillion, 2:27 they say. Additional subsidy budgets 2:31 could paralyze other government 2:32 activities, they claim. That's what's 2:34 being said. Eventually, the phrase " 2:38 subsidy politics" appeared on social 2:41 media. How do you see this, Bang 2:43 Ihsanudin? First...Let's take the 2:49 principle regarding what is called a 2:51 budget deficit or a collapsed state 2:53 budget. 2:54 He he. Yeah, 2:56 the principle of a "collapsed" state 2:57 budget exists because they don't 2:58 understand that......the government is 3:02 the creator of money. 3:04 Hm. That's why on Indonesian money, it 3:07 is always written "Unitary State of the 3:10 Republic of Indonesia." In the law 3:12 concerning currency, it is clear that 3:14 the issuer is the Unitary State of the 3:16 Republic of Indonesia. H......that 3:19 means Indonesia is the government of 3:20 the Republic of Indonesia. The 3:22 authority that issues money, the 3:24 authority that creates money, is the 3:26 government. Bank Indonesia distributes 3:30 it. 3:30 He. 3:31 What does that mean? It means the state 3:33 budget requirements shouldn't be able 3:34 to "collapse" because the creator of 3:36 money, the issuer of money, is the 3:38 government. That's the primary logic. 3:39 Yes. He. 3:42 Now, why did they end up coming out 3:43 with the term "collapse"? Because they 3:45 follow the limitations built by the 3:47 World Bank, limitations that have never 3:49 proven to be consistent or effective. 3:52 Yes. 3:53 They don't even align with efforts to 3:55 overcome poverty and unemployment. 3:57 Because there is no correlation between 4:01 the amount of poverty and the amount of 4:04 debt they create. 4:06 He-eh. 4:08 Yet in the theories that emerge in the 4:11 studies that are always being discussed 4:14 fiercely and deeply, it is that 4:17 unemployment will be converted by what 4:20 is called money creation. That is what 4:23 the Federal Reserve does. H. 4:25 So today, the Federal Reserve proudly 4:27 declares, and the Biden administration 4:29 states, their unemployment rate is 4:30 declining. 4:32 Because they are creating money 4:33 together with the Federal Reserve. So, 4:36 Congress agreed for the Federal Reserve 4:39 to print money to overcome unemployment 4:42 . 4:42 Like that. 4:43 That is the matter of the budget 4:46 deficit. 4:47 Right? 4:47 Yes. 4:48 That is the first one. 4:49 Yes. 4:49 Then the second is about price. 4:52 Yeah. 500 trillion, right? My question 4:56 becomes. 4:58 Have we ever dissected deeply, in 5:02 detail. 5:04 What is called the cost of production ( 5:06 BPP)? 5:07 Yeah. 5:08 What is the actual cost of production? 5:11 Hm. Hm. 5:11 Why do I question things like that? 5:13 Because since the time. 5:15 President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono 5:17 raised fuel prices in March and October 5:20 2005. 5:22 I have never stopped until today from 5:25 questioning the basic policy of energy 5:29 prices. 5:30 Energy. 5:31 Whether it is Premium, Pertamax, or 5:34 Pertalite, or even electricity. 5:36 Hm. 5:37 Including electricity. 5:39 Electricity is even more chaotic. So 5:41 let us calculate the cost of production 5:43 fairly. Meaning, in doing so, we must 5:46 question where we get the resources 5:49 from. 5:51 What we are questioning is our crude 5:55 oil. 5:57 How much we produce ourselves, how much 5:59 we buy, that has to be broken down. 6:00 Yeah. 6:01 Why should we buy what we can produce 6:03 ourselves? 6:03 Yes. 6:05 If we must import, where do we import 6:07 from? Hm. 6:08 Is the import from a colonizing country 6:10 or from a country that really wants to 6:11 help Indonesia with cheap prices? 6:13 Yes. Yes. 6:14 With an Islamic approach, I have said 6:15 many times, it is rational. 6:17 H. 6:18 Even in the current situation of energy 6:21 price wars. 6:23 Where the price has reached 83 point 6:26 something dollars per barrel again. 6:30 Indonesia could still be supported with 6:32 crude oil from several countries at 6:34 below-market prices. But it is 6:36 Indonesia that doesn't want to, as I 6:38 have said many times. 6:40 Even when there was a commotion 6:42 yesterday, I said, "Do you want this? 6:44 I'm offering crude oil here, if you 6:46 want a cheap price, contact me 6:47 immediately." I said that, yeah. 6:51 So it means, where is this crude oil 6:53 coming from? 6:55 If you buy it at market price, I 6:57 suspect there is mark-up involved. 6:59 You go to the market. 7:01 Then the purchase price is based on the 7:04 spot market model. 7:05 Even though you have long-term needs, 7:07 why must you buy it using the spot 7:09 market, for example? 7:10 Hm. 7:11 Then you are proud to change Petral to 7:13 the integrated supply chain model at 7:16 Pertamina. I said, "Yes, you can change 7:19 Petral to integrated supply chains, but 7:21 that's just adding to the overhead." 7:25 That is the core. The same goes for oil 7:28 products, like wherever you buy your 7:30 oil products from. Yeah. 7:32 If you look for products, you look in 7:34 Singapore, or in countries that will 7:36 certainly dictate terms to you. 7:39 Yeah. 7:39 Why does Singapore have higher energy 7:41 security than Indonesia? Singapore has 7:44 absolutely no energy resources but has 7:46 extraordinary energy security. That 7:48 relates back to what is called the 7:50 availability system. That availability 7:53 system is what I've been questioning 7:54 regarding tanking. I’ve been 7:56 questioning the tanking issue since 7:57 2005, in fact. Even until now. Even now 8:00 , tanking is still not being addressed 8:02 as a problem. It is systemic, 8:05 structural, from the investment system 8:08 to find oil, the drilling, exploration, 8:11 to then storage, transportation, 8:13 re-storage, re-transportation, 8:16 processing, and so on. We, I'm 8:19 questioning it, it's not there. 8:21 Yeah. Yeah. So this price is truly a 8:24 price that is, first of all, a price 8:27 based on public goods or a price based 8:31 on commercial goods. 8:34 So if Pertamina 8:36 again, in my debate at the 8:37 Constitutional Court, I clearly stated, 8:40 yes, what is defined as a public good 8:42 still doesn't exist to this day. The 8:45 government doesn't have the courage to 8:48 declare energy as a public good. What 8:51 exists is the old Oil and Gas Law that 8:53 keeps getting bounced around and never 8:55 discussed further. What was discussed 8:58 instead was the Law on 9:00 Job Creation, right, so 9:03 they don't understand priorities, you 9:04 know. Then after not understanding 9:06 priorities, they start crying about the 9:07 state budget being broken. What is the 9:09 policy logic here, that's what I mean. 9:11 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So if Pertamina says 9:14 that increasing the quota means the 9:17 subsidy becomes increasingly 9:19 unrealistic, that's their way of 9:22 shifting responsibility onto the people 9:25 . There is logic to Pertamina's 9:28 statement because they have already 9:30 declared 9:32 that their products are commercial 9:33 products. 9:34 Yeah. 9:35 No. 9:35 Yeah. So, once they have declared that 9:38 energy prices are their products, and 9:41 they are commercial products. 9:44 I actually presented this before 9:46 Pertamina workers from all over 9:48 Indonesia 9:49 in Balikpapan. Look, Pertamina has 9:52 already stated that their products, 9:53 your products, are commercial. 9:55 If they are commercial, then this will 9:56 happen. So later, when Pertamina is no 9:58 longer able to do anything, several of 10:00 its holdings and sub-holdings will be 10:02 sold off. Yeah. 10:04 I’ve already reached that point. So, 10:06 the theory of subsidies, the theory of 10:08 this deficit, is related to the 10:10 liberalization of the oil and gas 10:12 sector. It is related to the future 10:13 privatization of Pertamina's 10:14 sub-holdings. 10:15 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 10:16 That’s it. 10:17 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Getting further and 10:19 further away from the goal of public 10:21 welfare and moving toward capitalist 10:22 goals. 10:24 It will never align with Article 33. I 10:27 I have stated many times that this is 10:29 essentially a structural reform in the 10:31 energy sector under the orders of the 10:33 IMF and World Bank. 10:34 Yeah. 10:37 What they are implementing, essentially 10:39 , to put it simply, neoliberalism has 10:41 three components: liberalization, 10:42 privatization, and fiscal discipline— 10:44 fiscal discipline means limiting 10:45 subsidies. 10:47 Yeah. 10:48 That’s the triangle of what we call 10:50 neoliberalism; its policy content is 10:51 those three things. 10:53 Liberalization, privatization, fiscal 10:56 discipline. 10:57 Fiscal discipline means there are 10:58 limits; you subsidize too much, the 11:00 state budget collapses, so to speak. 11:02 What does that mean? It’s released to 11:04 the market, you see. 11:09 Now, Baikudin, if that’s the case, 11:11 the government says that the longer the 11:14 decision to reduce fuel subsidies is 11:16 delayed, the worse the impact will be 11:18 for businesses and investors, who will 11:21 face a huge burden that will inevitably 11:23 affect the people too. Connecting it to 11:27 that subsidy politics, the signal is, 11:29 well, politicians are here, ministers 11:32 are there, you know. Meanwhile, the 11:34 president is seen as being alone in 11:36 facing this fuel issue regarding the 11:37 people. Is that correct? If you look at 11:42 what they say, 11:44 H 11:47 actually, this back-and-forth over the 11:48 fuel price hike is nothing new. It’s 11:51 the same as the back-and-forth we once 11:53 saw with the tax hike for SMEs. 11:55 Remember that. 11:56 Yes. Yes. 11:57 It was eventually canceled. 11:58 Yeah. 11:59 Then there was also back-and-forth on 12:01 various other policies. 12:03 Yeah. 12:04 So it’s considered as failing to 12:05 provide certainty, right? Now, when 12:09 there is certainty and that certainty 12:12 instead benefits the business oligarchy 12:16 , whether domestic or global 12:18 international, then a question 12:21 naturally arises: is this certainty for 12:25 the Indonesian people, for the 12:28 so-called Indonesian citizens? 12:32 Or certainty for foreigners in 12:34 Indonesia, or certainty just for the 12:36 business groups? 12:39 While the people, who are mostly 12:41 consumers, are always dictated by 12:43 corporate power. 12:46 Yeah, yeah. 12:46 That’s how the political economy 12:48 logic becomes. 12:48 Yeah. Yeah. Now, when those questions 12:51 arise, they answer with, "Okay, we 12:53 provide certainty," but the certainty 12:55 is for the corporations. They don’t 12:57 provide certainty to the Indonesian 12:58 people as the holders of sovereignty. 13:00 Yeah. 13:00 Right? The struggle becomes, when we 13:02 speak of people's sovereignty, which 13:03 people are you referring to? They say, 13:05 "Not them, our people." And what are " 13:07 our people"? The corporate people. 13:09 Yeah. 13:10 This brings it back to the grand thesis 13:12 in political economy. I’ll stick to 13:14 political economy for now. 13:15 Yeah. 13:16 If it gets down to the economy itself, 13:18 then the sectoral economy. Then to the 13:20 sub-sectors, then to the 13:22 sub-sub-sectors. I'm ready, willing, 13:25 and able to debate. 13:27 Yes. Yes. 13:29 My words are, "I'm ready, willing, and 13:31 able to debate." 13:31 Yeah. 13:32 So it's not like I just started saying 13:33 this now. Yeah. 13:34 Since I was in the House of 13:35 Representatives, I've been like this. 13:37 Ever since I became a member of the 13:38 council, you know. 13:39 This is a fundamental policy problem. 13:42 Yeah. Yeah. For example, people are 13:44 making a fuss about debt. I’ve been 13:45 making a fuss about debt since long ago 13:47 , even to the point where Prof. Dr. 13:48 Boediono rejected my ideas. 13:49 He he he. 13:50 Then, after no longer in office, you 13:52 finally approve of problematic debt. 13:54 Wait, after you're out of office, you 13:56 wash your hands, just like you'll do 13:57 later. "Yes, I was wrong when I was in 13:59 office." Meanwhile, when you were an 14:01 official, your work burdened the people 14:02 . How does that story go? 14:03 Yeah. Yeah. 14:05 Then you say, "Why is this a problem 14:08 for the people, or is it the 14:10 corporations?" That's because you let 14:15 corporations lead growth. That's the 14:19 thesis I've said was wrong since the 14:20 Soeharto era. 14:21 Heh. "Let the corporate lead the growth 14:25 ," right? 14:27 Letting corporations direct economic 14:29 growth is wrong. 14:30 H. 14:31 Because the state has a huge role in 14:34 providing for the lives of many, both 14:36 in goods and services. 14:38 Yes. 14:38 That's it. That is the government's 14:40 role. That is the state's role. That is 14:43 the role of protecting, educating, and 14:46 yes... 14:48 the important phrase is improving 14:50 welfare. So the mission is clear: 14:54 protect, educate, improve welfare, and 14:56 build justice for all. The mission is 15:00 very clear. 15:01 But when you let the private sector 15:04 lead growth, it means they will dictate 15:06 . Corporations will dictate, whether 15:09 it's domestic or foreign corporations. 15:13 When asked, these corporations feel 15:15 they lack certainty, and if delayed, it 15:18 causes...yes, you provide certainty to 15:20 the corporations. You never provide 15:22 certainty to the people, even though 15:24 the people are the holders of 15:25 sovereignty. Yes. I. 15:26 So the question is, who are you siding 15:28 with? 15:28 Hm. Hm. 15:34 Alright. Given that concern, Bang 15:38 Ichsanuddin, regarding energy security 15:40 in this country, which is indeed at a 15:43 very dangerous level and needs major 15:45 restoration. You also mentioned its 15:48 connection to the state budget burden. 15:51 Some observers highlight this state 15:53 budget burden, noting that it leads to 15:55 crucial issues that spill over into 15:57 fuel problems, namely national 15:59 strategic projects. One of them is the 16:02 IKN project, not to mention other 16:04 projects. How is the connection, Bang 16:07 Ichsanuddin, if we want to see it as 16:08 one of the causes? 16:12 Because budget politics always talks 16:14 about... 16:16 allocation. 16:18 Yeah. 16:19 Distribution. Someone is recording this 16:21 . Recording. 16:23 Already felt it, have you? 16:26 You already have a sense of this. 16:30 Ah, so when it comes to budget politics 16:31 , there are four things. 16:32 Hm. There is regulation, allocation, 16:37 distribution, and stabilization. 16:41 Hm. 16:44 At the very least, observers are 16:47 questioning the fuel subsidies, the 16:50 energy subsidies. If using the term 16:54 from the financial note, it's energy 16:56 subsidies, right? 16:57 Especially regarding Pertalite. 17:01 Compared to the allocation for IKN and 17:04 the high-speed rail, they consider it 17:06 ... 17:09 unreasonable, because the high-speed 17:12 rail and IKN were never part of the 17:14 national priority scale. 17:17 Yes. 17:18 That is their analysis. 17:19 He he. 17:22 That analysis is only based on two 17:23 things: planning analysis and 17:24 allocation analysis. He he. 17:28 They do not enter into distribution and 17:30 stabilization analysis. So 17:32 uh 17:33 sorry to say, they set aside that 17:35 perspective because such a perspective 17:37 is just addition, subtraction, 17:38 multiplication, and division based on 17:40 desire. 17:42 Addition, yes, that's right. No. 17:45 Such analytical methods are just ways 17:47 of addition, subtraction, 17:48 multiplication, and division based on 17:49 desires 17:50 and interests. 17:51 Whereas, this nation has needs. 17:55 Yeah. Yeah. The nation's need is to 17:59 elevate its dignity, which in an 18:01 economic approach means not having its 18:04 hand out. 18:05 Yeah. 18:07 Now, the question is why is the 18:09 government already daring to state that 18:11 in 2023 they will issue debt, creating 18:14 new debt of 696 trillion 18:17 by paying interest of around 405, which 18:18 means when later it also includes 18:20 paying installments, it will be 18:21 negative. Yeah. Yeah. 18:24 Right, 810, let's say 807. 18:27 Yeah. 18:28 For that 807, we still have to pay 18:29 installments and principal. 18:31 New debt created is 696. 18:34 It means we must be short by 107 + 4, 18:38 so short 111 trillion. Even though it's 18:41 already negative. That means we will 18:43 issue more government securities later. 18:44 Like that. Yeah. 18:45 Yes. 18:46 Issue more bonds. The big question is 18:50 this shows the root problem is not 18:52 solved because the creation of new debt 18:54 , both from the perspective of issuing 18:56 debt securities or agreements, doesn't 18:58 actually solve the root problem and 19:00 doesn't make this country have good 19:02 economic sovereignty. 19:05 That's the first logic. Solve that 19:07 first, then talk about allocation 19:08 regarding addition, subtraction, 19:09 multiplication, and division based on 19:11 desire, that's my take. But Bang 19:14 Isanudin, when talking about APBN 19:16 politics, those four elements of 19:17 stability are actually already being 19:19 run by those great DPR members, right? 19:22 Have they? 19:23 What speaks to the stability? The DPR 19:27 members are great, the legislators are 19:29 not playing around, Bang Hanudin. Well, 19:34 before I was banned by them, I used to 19:37 be a speaker repeatedly in Commission 19:40 11, Commission 6, Commission 3, 19:42 Commission 8. 19:45 Not just one commission, I was a 19:46 speaker in several commissions. 19:48 Including even Commission 1. I don't 19:51 like to brag about myself. It means 19:52 this, 19:53 he 19:54 when we talk about our way of looking 19:56 at fixing this, it's clear there's a 19:58 problem that 20:00 is seen partially, right? Indeed, back 20:03 when I studied development planning, 20:06 that was back in my college days. 20:11 Lucky you still remember, we've 20:12 forgotten our college days. 20:16 Yeah. So if we study development 20:19 planning, it's part of strategic 20:22 planning, I studied that strategic 20:24 planning in '87. 20:27 Yeah. 20:29 It depends on the school of thought. 20:30 The school of thought is, ultimately, 20:32 what values do we bring into that 20:33 planning. What values do we uphold and 20:37 hold as guidelines to direct us in 20:39 making plans and allocating 20:41 distribution and stabilization? What 20:44 direction do we use? Those are values. 20:46 Yes. Yes. 20:47 Meaning, when we talk about the role of 20:49 budget politics requiring stability, 20:51 what is the keyword, and has BI 20:53 actually succeeded in stabilizing the 20:56 exchange rate? 20:57 Why does BI always use inflation as the 20:59 keyword to stabilize the exchange rate? 21:01 Heh. 21:01 From that exchange rate stability, what 21:03 benefits does the general public 21:04 actually receive? 21:04 Hm. 21:05 With low inflation stability like that, 21:07 what is felt by the public in terms of 21:10 improving their economic dignity so 21:12 that the Gini ratio decreases? Hm. 21:16 What does the public gain from efforts 21:18 to address the ownership structure of 21:19 production and distribution resources 21:20 that is currently happening? 21:23 The figures they present are not 21:24 figures meant to improve the dignity of 21:26 the nation. The figures they present 21:29 are not meant to demonstrate economic 21:31 sovereignty, which also implies 21:32 political sovereignty, as I stated in 21:34 my lectures everywhere during the 17th 21:36 of August celebrations—before people 21:38 were arguing about "we aren't 21:39 independent yet," I spoke about it 21:41 first, not that it's about me being 21:42 first. Heh. 21:44 The point is, that’s why my old book 21:46 from 2006, *We Are Not Independent Yet* 21:48 , exists, and Angga knows that. 21:51 Yes. 21:53 So, there is something here, it’s 21:54 been 15 years, you know. 21:56 Hm. 21:57 For 16 years, it’s been like this. 21:59 Since 2006, I published that book, and 22:01 it's like that. There is a problematic 22:03 issue here. In public policy, there is 22:06 what is called every regulation, every 22:09 state circulation through elections. 22:13 There are two principles established. 22:15 The principles of continuing policy and 22:17 discontinuing policy. And a third 22:19 principle, for example, the new policy. 22:22 So there are policies that are 22:24 continued, policies that are 22:26 discontinued, and new policies. Those 22:28 are the three policies. 22:30 Now the question is, what is the value 22:31 basis for that policy analysis? The 22:33 basis is the vision and mission. 22:35 Of national and state life. Where are 22:37 the vision and mission found? They are 22:38 in the constitution. We compare all of 22:40 them against it. Are they consistent or 22:42 not? When they are not consistent, then 22:44 they should be discontinued, which led 22:45 to my book, *We Are Not Independent Yet 22:47 *. My book came out. Welcome to a 22:49 chaotic country, you know. 22:51 Yes. Yes. Now, Bang. 22:54 Coming to the Joko era, my book*Bangsa 22:55 Terbaring*(The Prostrate Nation) came 22:57 out, meaning the root problems were 22:59 never finished. 23:00 Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. This is from 23:03 the first issue we raised, Bang 23:04 Ihsanudin, right? We want to draw a 23:07 common thread, we want to inform the 23:10 listeners about this issue according to 23:12 Bang Ichsan Nursi before we move on to 23:15 another issue, Bang Hanudin, what 23:17 should the government's policy altruism 23:20 look like regarding fuel? 23:23 Wow, that question, the question of 23:26 altruism. If altruism is the principle 23:29 of sharing, Angga. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 23:32 Is there really a principle of sharing 23:33 among them? 23:35 This is a country, you know. This is a 23:37 country, Bang. If there were a 23:40 principle of sharing, the term " 23:41 oligarchy" wouldn't even exist. 23:43 Hm. 23:44 Altruism is simplified. It is the 23:47 concept of sharing. In Islamic terms, 23:48 that is what is called "w mimma 23:50 razqahum yunfikun." 23:51 Yes. Yes. 23:54 Now the question is, does it really 23:55 exist? They are content in their party 23:58 position, the only shareholders in the 24:00 government. 24:01 Yeah. Yeah. 24:02 And the rest of the people are left 24:03 over by the party. No, no, no, no, no, 24:05 they don't get a share. Like that. 24:07 Is the direct cash assistance (BLT) 24:08 subsidy not like that? 24:10 Well, that BLT is what you call 24:13 drippings from greed. 24:16 Drippings of greed, just crumbs, right. 24:18 True. I am using the term from Adam 24:21 Smith. 24:21 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That is "benevolent 24:24 society." Let the poor get the 24:26 leftovers of our dinner. 24:29 H 24:30 That is Adam Smith. 24:32 Yes. Yes. 24:33 That is exactly what BLT is. 24:35 Yeah. Yeah. 24:36 Let the poor society get the leftovers 24:38 of our dinner, like that. 24:39 H 24:41 it even goes that far. So when we 24:43 return to the current situation that is 24:46 emerging with the principle of altruism 24:50 then there is a huge error in the 24:53 system in this country. 24:55 He he. 24:57 This country adopts a multicameral 24:59 system but implements a bicameral one. 25:01 I 25:01 but even in the bicameral system 25:05 an asymmetric parliamentary system is 25:07 applied where the roles of the DPR and 25:09 DPD are unbalanced. That is what is 25:10 called an asymmetric parliament. how it 25:13 was born. Meanwhile, the DPD is now 25:15 very active in absorbing public 25:17 aspirations, so all public aspirations 25:19 that differ from the government come to 25:21 the DPD, not the DPR. That means there 25:24 is an error in the legislative 25:26 policy-making. There is a legislative 25:29 policy error, a budgeting policy error, 25:31 a supervisory policy error. 25:34 That's the logic. Angga, let me repeat. 25:35 Let me repeat. When all problems are 25:38 poured into the DPD in the middle of a 25:40 DPD-DPR system that is a bicameral 25:42 system, and the bicameral system turns 25:44 out to be an asymmetric parliament. 25:47 Then that depicts the policies that 25:49 emerge from the DPR and the government 25:53 those are policies that do not solve 25:55 the root of the problem. That means 25:58 asymmetric policy. 26:00 Why? because they are indeed receiving 26:02 an asymmetric parliament. 26:04 And because of that, all their policies 26:06 covering legislation, budget, and 26:08 supervision in the running of the 26:09 government process are wrong, 26:12 they are not proportional. A sense of 26:15 justice that is torn apart is born. 26:18 Simply put, Angga. He he. 26:21 So you can see everyone now runs to the 26:23 DPD, complains to the DPD, the DPD 26:24 talks everywhere, the DPD makes a 26:26 matriculation of the problems. That is 26:29 a picture of inequality, and in simple 26:32 terms, it has already appeared; I wrote 26:35 this back in 2004. 26:37 he 26:38 reform resulted in a constitutional 26:39 crisis. 26:41 When this problem continues and the 26:43 three roles between the DPD, DPR, and 26:45 government persist, what emerges is 26:47 institutional conflict. When we enter 26:51 into a state institution conflict, then 26:53 there is clearly a legal vacuum 26:55 regarding the issues of relationships 26:57 and the governance of state 26:59 institutions that I questioned when I 27:01 was a council member. 27:03 Can you imagine, it has been 27:05 already 20-something years, 23 years, 27:08 he. 27:09 I have a problem with things like this, 27:10 you know. My generation has had issues 27:13 like this, and they haven't been 27:15 answered by people who claim to be 27:16 reformists. Yeah. 27:19 That means Ihsanudin has to write a 27:21 second book, "The Divided Nation," or 27:23 maybe "The Many Divided Nations." 27:28 Yes, that's right. I've been following 27:30 the debates in a certain group. I, um, 27:33 in my own words... 27:36 I took on the role of someone who is 27:38 learning. I thought, "Let me follow 27:40 this discussion group while I act as a 27:42 learner." Uh-huh. 27:44 I don't see any ideas that are truly 27:47 significant or moving forward compared 27:50 to my concepts from 1995 to 1999. 27:54 That's the truth. 27:55 I don't see anything, and if you look 27:57 from 1999/2000 until now, it's a 27:59 failure. I've added various things, but 28:02 when I look at the current ideas—even 28:05 when I was a state official—I don't 28:08 see anything brand new or refreshing 28:11 for our parentage. 28:13 Hm. 28:15 So, anything truly new regarding how 28:16 they uphold sovereignty, I don't see it 28:18 and I don't feel it. 28:19 Uh-huh. 28:21 For example, just look at fiscal and 28:22 monetary policy. 28:23 It’s just like that, just basic 28:25 addition and subtraction based on whims 28:27 , not based on their vision and mission 28:30 . Oh, they use very fancy language. " 28:33 The winds of uncertainty or the waves 28:34 of instability are still continuing, 28:36 even though recovery is happening." 28:38 What does that even mean? 28:42 Alright, Ihsanudin, let's focus. So, 28:45 according to you... 28:47 Yeah. 28:47 If the government wants to share this, 28:49 will fuel prices go up or will it be 28:51 subsidized again? It will definitely go 28:54 up. 28:54 Definitely up. 28:55 It must go up because this is about the 28:58 instructions, the orders from the IMF 29:00 and World Bank. 29:01 That's right. 29:03 What's interesting is that the World 29:06 Bank and IMF don't share the thoughts 29:09 currently developing in their own 29:12 countries about how emerging market 29:14 countries are trying to restructure 29:17 their debt. 29:19 Hm. 29:21 They know; I like to follow their 29:23 debates. 29:24 Yes. 29:26 On several prestigious sites, for 29:28 example, I follow those debates, and 29:31 I've repeatedly mentioned this on Rasil 29:34 : in other countries, in developed 29:36 nations, when Covid-19 and vaccines hit 29:39 , the World Bank and IMF groups 29:41 discussed the debt situation of 29:44 emerging markets in depth. 29:47 But that is not heard at all in 29:50 Indonesia. Yeah. 29:52 So, I’m puzzled why Indonesia seems 29:55 deaf to such situations. I said deaf. 30:00 I think there’s probably a cooler 30:02 term for that. 30:05 Yes. Maybe not. I want to say it like 30:08 this. 30:09 Uh-huh. 30:10 If we become public officials, then we 30:14 must prioritize the public interest. Hm 30:17 . 30:18 The public interest is guided by what 30:19 is called the oath of office. 30:21 That oath of office carries a vision 30:23 and mission witnessed by 30:25 the Almighty. 30:26 Yes. 30:28 So we must realize that it is 30:30 impossible for us to act in ways that 30:33 deviate from that oath of office. So 30:37 that at the end of our tenure, we 30:39 remain honorable. But, staying 30:41 honorable—my term for it is, you 30:44 choose: do you want to finish your term 30:47 with honor, or finish with your head 30:49 hung low? I tell them, 30:51 just take your pick. 30:53 Now, 30:54 I say that to the generals, that is— 30:58 I am open when speaking to them. 31:00 Yes. Understood. I am open, including 31:03 when I discuss—for instance, now 31:05 there is a debate on de-globalization 31:07 with Sri Mulyani—I told her plainly, 31:09 why do you keep pushing for 31:10 globalization while many countries are 31:12 de-globalizing? I’ve repeated this 31:15 many times in meetings. 31:16 Countries are still in this situation, 31:18 protecting themselves through 31:19 de-globalization, right? Indonesia 31:21 still relies on globalization, hence, 31:24 feeling proud of the windfall profits 31:27 from palm oil and coal, right? So they 31:29 are proud of the improved trade balance 31:31 , even though it is illusory. How about 31:34 that? Who really enjoys the windfall 31:38 from the rising prices of coal and palm 31:40 oil? It is the private sector, not the 31:42 state. Yes. 31:45 Yes, yes, yes, that is where we see it. 31:47 Yes, yes. 31:49 Eh, you only get what is called export 31:53 taxes, export fees, right? But you 31:58 don't enjoy the extraordinary price 32:00 difference for coal and palm oil. 32:03 Actually, I’ve been having this 32:04 discussion for a long time. 32:06 If I follow things like this. 32:07 Right. 32:08 But again, the government— 32:10 I don't understand, I don't know why 32:13 they are so slow to see that. 32:15 It’s quite surprising, right? Now, 32:17 Bang Ihsanudin, that last paragraph, I 32:19 will connect it to the second issue I 32:21 want to raise. Regarding the office, 32:24 the oath, as well as integrity and also 32:28 loyalty. While at the start, the first 32:32 issue we discussed had the major theme 32:34 of energy security. Secondly, I 32:36 actually want to bring up the moral 32:38 resilience regarding the case where, if 32:39 Republika becomes the headline, it's 32:41 the independent admission pathway 32:42 evolution of the UNILA Rector. If some 32:46 observers write that there is less and 32:48 less evidence of the mental revolution 32:51 movement in this country, when 32:53 academics...we have often talked about 32:55 officials, right? Now it's the 32:58 academics, Bang Ihsanudin, who need to 33:00 be under the spotlight. This is not the 33:02 first case to be exposed, right? Among 33:04 the many, many cases. If the question 33:07 is, which rector is not like this? 33:10 Anyone could answer that. Now, the 33:12 moral resilience of our academics, what 33:15 do you think about that, Bang, starting 33:18 from this one case? Uh, I could say I 33:24 am, uh, a peddler in the academic world 33:29 . Cangcimen. Cangcimen, right. I’ve 33:36 lectured at various universities, you 33:38 know. That’s why I call myself a 33:41 street vendor in the academic world. 33:42 Flying here and there just to give 33:44 lectures, just flying around. 33:45 I 33:46 uh, openly, I’ve said this in Jogja 33:49 too. H 33:50 In Jogja, in Malang, uh, in Semarang, 33:55 in Surabaya, you know. And also in, uh, 34:00 Kalimantan, in Palembang, in Padang. Uh 34:07 , and when we ask about the morals of 34:09 education, 34:13 that means the goal of higher education 34:16 is to produce noble character, right? 34:22 Yes. 34:23 Faithful, pious, and of noble character 34:25 . 34:26 With high knowledge of science and 34:29 technology, it’s not that it wasn’t 34:33 achieved, not a failure. But it has 34:36 been successfully diverted. So the 34:42 terminology is different; it’s not a 34:44 failure, not unachieved, but rather, 34:46 they successfully diverted it. I’ve 34:50 addressed this on my YouTube channel, 34:52 that the goal of higher education is to 34:54 produce individuals of noble character. 34:58 Uh, faithful, pious, and of noble 35:00 character, with advanced skills in 35:02 science and technology. Exactly. I 35:04 experienced this when Nadiem Makarim 35:07 created an education roadmap. 35:10 I considered that roadmap to be moving 35:13 even further away from the goal of 35:15 noble character, faith, and piety. 35:18 Because they stated that titles 35:19 shouldn't exist, that’s the keyword. 35:21 They said that, and then all the 35:23 campuses shouted "Independent Campus," 35:25 but independent from what? Exactly. Yes 35:28 . 35:29 Independent from what? We really have 35:30 to look back at our educational mission 35:33 from the constitution. Our educational 35:36 mission from the constitution is 35:37 clearly to enlighten. If it’s about 35:39 enlightening society, the public, the 35:41 keyword isn’t just intellectual 35:44 enlightenment, but also emotional and 35:46 spiritual enlightenment. That’s why 35:49 the Higher Education Law directs us 35:51 toward noble character, faith, and 35:53 piety. 35:53 Yeah. Uh-huh. Now, when the UNILA 35:56 rector case emerged, several friends 35:59 said this is the tip of the iceberg. 36:02 Yes. 36:02 Correct. 36:04 That’s true. 36:05 That’s what Republika said. I was 36:07 once criticized, in 2000-something, I 36:10 think. "You talk about political 36:12 economy remarkably well, but you rarely 36:14 speak about education." 36:16 Uh, I was struck in my conscience. Oh, 36:19 you're right. Heh. 36:20 Then, when I entered the world of 36:22 education, it was precisely the world 36:24 of education that was first dominated 36:26 and hegemonized, thus forming a 36:27 materialistic society. 36:29 Yes. 36:29 And that has been happening since '66. 36:31 That’s why I say we should dissect 36:34 our educational world, the history of 36:38 our education, back when professors 36:41 from Berkeley were exchanged with UI. 36:44 From UI, two people were also sent 36:46 there to go. We learned from that back 36:49 in '66. And in Indonesia, schools for 36:52 the elites were also being established. 36:55 Well, that is where the principle of 36:57 materialism enters. That is where the 37:00 imbalance occurs between spiritual 37:02 intelligence, emotional intelligence, 37:05 and intellectual intelligence. In my 37:08 concept, it is an equilateral triangle. 37:11 Emotional, spiritual, and intellectual 37:12 intelligence. And at the center, the 37:15 core is a soul that serves its 37:17 teachings. Why? Because this nation is 37:19 a religious nation, that is how it 37:21 should be viewed. So, materialism 37:23 should not be everything. Now, the 37:26 world of education, well, I actually 37:29 have to say that when a university 37:32 sells a doctoral degree, 37:35 yeah. 37:35 under the name of honoris causa, when a 37:38 university sells a professor title, 37:39 well, those professors are the same. 37:43 They are the same. I do acknowledge 37:45 there is a principle of schooling and 37:46 deschooling. So, once again, there was 37:48 a debate in a WhatsApp group. 37:50 Yes. 37:50 I said, look, schooling is about how 37:53 someone follows formal levels to earn a 37:56 degree. It can be matched, but with 37:59 certain conditions. I remember the 38:03 debates in the 70s, for instance, when 38:06 discussing "deschooling society," or 38:08 say, Freire, who is often quoted by 38:11 Akdar Manu regarding the ethics of 38:14 liberation. Liberation theory, for the 38:18 liberation of the oppressed. 38:21 Pedagogy of the Oppressed, education 38:22 for the oppressed. If you take it from 38:24 that angle. In the early 70s, the 38:27 debate already emerged: must schooling 38:31 be like this, because schooling molds 38:34 the mind? 38:34 Yes. 38:35 In other words, it creates hegemony, it 38:37 hegemonizes people's minds through 38:39 schooling. Meanwhile, deschooling, or 38:42 being free from it, is why nature 38:45 schools were born. Nature schools 38:48 actually try to integrate schooling and 38:50 deschooling, to see how to shape that. 38:53 It simultaneously aims to avoid molding 38:56 the mind in a way that emotional 38:58 intelligence meets intellectual 39:00 intelligence. 39:01 Yeah. 39:02 I was just speaking yesterday at an 39:04 Islamic boarding school, in East Java, 39:06 at Al-Islah. The trouble is, all 39:08 Islamic boarding schools in Indonesia 39:10 follow that schooling format. Yes. Yes. 39:13 So their spiritual intelligence is only 39:16 a matter of casing and context. Not in 39:19 content. 39:20 Yeah. 39:22 That is fundamental; if cases like 39:24 UNILA and a number of universities 39:26 selling cheap professor and honorary 39:28 doctoral titles arise, what is truly 39:30 emerging is the problematic deviation 39:32 from the purpose of higher education. 39:35 He he. That deviation—if people call 39:39 it moral degradation or the 39:41 demoralization of higher education— 39:43 that is the collapse of a society. 39:45 Yes. Yes. Yes. 39:47 So, demoralization in the world of 39:48 education is actually the same as the 39:50 destruction of society. 39:52 He he. 39:52 The devastation of society. Those 39:56 social values, when the world of 39:58 education is that far gone in its 40:00 demoralization. 40:03 What is depicted is the cheap granting 40:05 of honorary doctorates just for 40:08 promises of development, or honorary 40:10 professorships granted cheaply for 40:12 various promises from the recipient, 40:15 for the benefit of higher education. 40:18 Whether it's personal or not, I don't 40:20 know, let's just forget about that. But 40:22 it illustrates the demoralization of 40:24 educational values. 40:25 That demoralization of educational 40:27 values 40:29 is essentially the demoralization of 40:32 society, which bears the face of deceit 40:35 and lies. Yes. 40:37 That is why I say that deceit and lies 40:40 are the same as giving birth to a 40:42 fragmented society, a fragile society, 40:45 a society that always lies to one 40:47 another, a society that is very selfish 40:49 , a society that never thinks of others 40:52 . 40:53 Yes. 40:53 That is one of the reasons the nation 40:55 is divided. 40:57 It will not—the demoralization of 40:59 education will not foster the need for 41:00 critical thinking. It does not produce 41:02 intellectual stability. It does not 41:04 produce what you call intellectual 41:05 steadfastness. I ask Angga now. 41:08 Yes. 41:08 And Rasil listeners, 41:10 as well as those who receive honorary 41:12 doctorates anywhere, and those who 41:13 grant honorary professorships anywhere. 41:16 Have we ever witnessed complete, stable 41:19 , and firm thoughts from them? 41:23 Pure ideas, you know? 41:24 Never. Never. 41:26 Yes. Yes. 41:28 Because people who enter that world are 41:31 measured by the 4Cs. 41:34 Yes. How about their consistency, how 41:37 about their coherence, 41:38 how about their correspondence, 41:41 how about their consequences for the 41:44 thoughts they present. 41:46 That is not easy, you know. That is the 41:48 philosophy of science within it. Yes. 41:52 Exactly. Angga. 41:53 So, brother. 41:54 When people are busy, like some media 41:56 outlets are busy talking about the 41:57 demoralization of the world of 41:59 education. Well, you are contributing 42:01 to the demoralization of society. Oh, 42:04 contributing. Yes, you are. Yes, sorry 42:10 to say, excuse me for stating this on 42:13 Rasil. I have stated this openly in 42:17 front of dozens of journalists during a 42:19 morning debate attended by dozens of 42:21 media journalists in Indonesia; this 42:23 contributes to the destruction of 42:25 society. 42:27 They were shocked. 42:28 This is the opposite of the Fourth 42:29 Estate. 42:30 Yes, it must be the opposite. 42:33 Yes. Our perspective is outside the 42:35 mainstream views that they hold. Yes. 42:38 Exactly. When our perspective is 42:40 outside, we use a bird's-eye view, 42:42 a bird's-eye perspective, or a 42:44 helicopter view, a panoramic view, a 42:46 helicopter perspective; we can map out 42:48 what is below quite well. 42:50 Then we trace each sub-map, and we know 42:53 where the root of the problem lies. 42:55 Yes. Yes. 42:56 That is what I call a multisystemic 42:59 structural perspective. Yes, yes. 43:01 A good political economy is a 43:03 multisystemic structural political 43:04 economy, not just a systemic structural 43:06 one. 43:07 Yes, yes, yes, yes. 43:08 Now, Brother Udin, oh, we've been 43:10 reminded from the room next door, only 43:12 3 minutes left, they say. I'll do the 43:15 closing then, Bang. 43:16 Too engrossed in the conversation. 43:18 It really is engaging to listen to as a 43:20 closing, Bang Hanudin. I 43:22 you mentioned earlier. I won't go to 43:24 the big community, though. Let's stick 43:26 to Rasil first. Here at Rasil, there 43:29 are ustadz, academics, and journalists, 43:30 you know. There are teachers too, you 43:34 see. There are thinkers here as well. 43:35 The thinkers are extraordinary, you 43:37 know. It’s Tuesday morning, after all 43:39 . How can all the elements present at 43:43 Rasil have an impact and implication on 43:45 a nation's progress with everything 43:48 that's here? This is a miniature of 43:51 what's next door, you know. , what do 43:53 you think, Hanudin? Briefly. 43:55 Briefly, Al-Baqarah verse 3 states " 43:58 hudan lil muttaqin," and Al-Baqarah 185 44:01 states "hudan lin-nas." Try to explain 44:04 why the Qur'an has a dual role? 44:07 H 44:08 It is guidance for mankind. It is 44:10 guidance for the muttaqin (the pious). 44:12 Try to explain why is it like that? 44:16 When the Qur'an as the only robust and 44:19 undefeated source of knowledge states 44:22 that the book is guidance for human 44:25 life. The book is guidance for the 44:28 muttaqin. So let us ask. 44:30 Hm. Yeah. Which Islamic boarding school 44:33 or university genuinely applies the 44:35 educational methodology of the Qur'an? 44:38 I'm not saying the Qur'an itself, but 44:39 the Qur'anic educational methodology. 44:40 Now, isn't that interesting? No. 44:42 Interesting. Interesting. 44:43 For me to explain just one method 44:45 regarding semantics and the quadrant 44:47 system in the Qur'an, is the impact 44:50 extraordinary or not? 44:51 Yeah. He 44:52 Extraordinary. For example, when I...I 44:54 usually take a general example because 44:57 people memorize Al-Baqarah 286. I take 45:00 the example of the "sami'na wa ata'na" 45:02 quadrant. Oh, if that were taught in a 45:05 lecture... 45:06 Yes, yes, yes, yes. 45:07 In this quadrant, just the "sami'na wa 45:10 ata'na" approach. 45:12 So there are people who say "sami'na"( 45:13 we hear) but not "ata'na"(we obey); 45:15 there are people who "ata'na" but not " 45:16 sami'na," that's the quadrant. So, 45:18 let's develop it now. 45:20 What is "sami'na" and what is "ata'na" 45:21 in the framework of that quadrant? Ah, 45:23 isn't it powerful? 45:23 Powerful. But unfortunately, our time 45:25 is up, Bang Isanudin, my apologies. Not 45:28 to mention pursuing it semantically. Oh 45:31 , it turns out that "sami'na" refers to 45:33 system learning. Okay. What is the 45:34 system learning like? With what kind of 45:36 system learning model? Okay. Oh, this " 45:38 ata'na" means behavioral learning. Okay 45:40 . Why is it like this? The actor-based 45:41 approach and the system-based approach. 45:42 How do we do it? Then use the approach, 45:44 just use the quadrant approach. 45:46 Wow. 45:47 Wow. 45:48 Wow. 45:49 God willing, we will dissect it another 45:50 time. 45:51 Okay. Sure. 45:52 Yes. It's a pity our time is up, Bang, 45:55 your insights were extraordinary. No, 45:57 if...if the way of speaking is a bit 45:58 like this, isn't it... 46:00 You're welcome. 46:01 And to all Rasil listeners, I apologize 46:03 for any mistakes; they are my 46:04 responsibility, and I ask for 46:05 forgiveness while praying to Allah. 46:08 And if it is true, it is solely because 46:10 of Allah. Subhanakallahumma wabihamdika 46:13 ashadu alla ilaha illa anta wa 46:14 astagfiruka wa atubu ilaik, wabillahi 46:17 taufiq wal hidayah, assalamualaikum 46:19 warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. 46:21 Waalaikumsalam warahmatullahi 46:22 wabarakatuh. 
