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0:01 Brail TV. Brothers and sisters, may 0:10 Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala have mercy on 0:11 you. Now we enter our Wednesday 0:14 dialogue with our national observer and 0:17 political analyst, Brother Toni Rosyid. 0:20 Peace be upon you, Brother Toni. 0:24 >> And peace be upon you too, Mas Agus. 0:27 Are you doing well, Brother Toni? 0:29 >> Alhamdulillah, I am doing well, praise 0:31 be to God. 0:31 >> Alhamdulillah, we meet again, Brother, 0:34 at the end of September, on the 30th, 0:37 which is usually always... 0:41 >> September 30th. Back then, there was, 0:45 what do you call it, a kind of 0:48 obligation to watch the G30S PKI film 0:51 during the New Order era. However, we 0:56 would like to highlight this case of 0:59 the fake diploma from Bangka Belitung, 1:02 where it is reported that the Deputy 1:05 Governor of Bangka Belitung has been 1:08 temporarily suspended due to a fake 1:10 diploma case, and President Prabowo 1:13 Subianto has suspended the Deputy 1:16 Governor of Bangka Belitung, Heliana, 1:19 for being a defendant in a fake diploma 1:22 case. But what also needs to be noted 1:27 is that we also see that the 1:29 Constitutional Court cannot remain 1:32 silent regarding the fake diploma case 1:35 of Vice President Gibran Rakabuming. Um 1:39 , will...If something like this happens 1:45 , what will it be like in the future? 1:48 And perhaps Brother Toni has a 1:50 perspective regarding this fake diploma 1:53 case, and also with the price of 1:56 non-subsidized fuel in October 2026 1:59 which is projected to rise by 5 to 11 2:02 percent? Please, Brother Toni. 2:06 >> Alright, Mas Agus and all listeners 2:10 wherever you are. It's about diplomas 2:14 again. Diplomas again, right? 2:16 >> Yes. Um...You see...Of course, for 2:26 every citizen, especially for an 2:28 official, it is natural to scrutinize 2:31 ...To criticize what is within them 2:37 regarding the position they hold. One 2:41 of which is the process of obtaining 2:43 that position, where there is a 2:45 requirement to have a diploma. It's 2:48 just that, Brother, what needs to be 2:52 considered is that we should not let 2:56 legal matters be filled with political 2:59 agendas by certain groups. Ideally, 3:05 this demand should have been made when 3:07 Gibran was running, during the process. 3:11 >> Right. Ah, at that time, fine, if it 3:14 wasn't discovered then. Once they are 3:17 in office, it should have been revealed 3:20 and reported to the Constitutional 3:23 Court. And although every citizen still 3:28 has the right, at the same time, this 3:30 serves as a lesson for all parties that 3:33 when it comes to any official, they 3:36 must meet the applicable requirements, 3:39 whether it be for President, DPR, or 3:41 Vice President. Now, this should be a 3:46 trigger for all officials to have their 3:48 diplomas scrutinized. Not just the 3:52 deputy governor who is affected now, 3:55 but also members of the DPR, governors, 3:57 regents, mayors, and other officials. 4:02 And then there should be verification 4:03 for all official positions regarding 4:05 the diploma requirement or educational 4:07 qualifications. 4:09 >> Yes. So this, let's not have one case 4:11 pop up, then another tomorrow, right? 4:15 This case must serve as a collective 4:18 awakening for this nation, to expose 4:21 everything related to holding office 4:24 without meeting the sufficient 4:27 requirements. Especially regarding the 4:31 education requirement, which is the 4:33 diploma, that's one thing. Frankly, I 4:38 don't have enough data yet because this 4:40 matter of diplomas is, uh, secretive. 4:45 >> It's something where the data isn't 4:48 easy to uncover. A friend of mine— 4:51 this goes back a long time, way before 4:54 Jokowi's diploma issues—a close and 4:57 trustworthy friend, at least in my 4:59 opinion, was talking about high school 5:02 diplomas in Singapore, and he said that 5:08 >> he was at a graduation ceremony, his 5:09 child graduated at the same time as 5:10 Gibran, though not in the same faculty. 5:16 And this person met Jokowi because he 5:18 knew him back when Jokowi was still the 5:20 mayor of Solo. 5:23 >> So he knew him there, and it was a 5:25 bachelor's degree graduation. Then I 5:28 tried to ask, why is it that if you 5:30 look for his high school diploma in 5:33 Singapore, it isn't there? In Singapore 5:35 , you finish grade 11, and then you can 5:38 get a certificate to continue to a 5:40 bachelor's degree. How are they able to 5:42 get equivalency? Is that equivalency 5:46 valid or not? The question is also, why 5:49 is it, what do you call it? Are they 5:51 using the bachelor's degree or the high 5:52 school one? If they use the bachelor's 5:54 degree, the high school one should 5:55 naturally be included. Well, based on 5:58 the standards in Singapore, according 6:01 to my friend—and again, I haven't 6:03 verified this—you only do up to grade 6:06 11, then you get a certificate to 6:08 continue to a bachelor's, so Gibran 6:11 graduated with a bachelor's, and it's 6:14 valid because he graduated at the same 6:16 time as my friend's child. That is one 6:21 issue, but regardless of all that, 6:23 let's let it proceed to the 6:26 Constitutional Court. We hope they 6:30 remain objective, honestly reading all 6:34 the arguments presented, examining all 6:37 the data held by both the plaintiff and 6:40 the defendant, and making a decision 6:43 that is truly a decision—even if it 6:47 doesn't satisfy everyone, it must be an 6:50 objective one, because this will set a 6:55 precedent for future legal rulings. 6:58 That’s the matter of the diploma. But 7:02 for me, the most important thing is 7:05 that, first of all, every lawsuit must 7:09 be purely legal. It shouldn't be ridden 7:14 by or intervened in by any parties, or 7:17 exploited in a political context. But 7:22 there shouldn't be any legal 7:24 intervention for either the defendant 7:26 or the plaintiff, because this is being 7:28 read by the public, watched by the 7:30 public, and judged by the public. And 7:34 secondly, and this is most important, 7:37 starting from this issue of Gibran's 7:40 diploma, let's scrutinize all other 7:43 diplomas as well. Especially those of 7:47 the officials. Do all these governors 7:49 have valid diplomas, you know. Do these 7:52 mayors have valid diplomas? Do their 7:54 deputies, including those in parliament 7:56 , have valid diplomas? Yes, this is 7:59 what needs to be, uh, what do you call 8:02 it, explored in my opinion, so it 8:05 doesn't happen later on. And thirdly, 8:08 this is a warning to all parties who 8:10 want to become officials, fulfill the 8:12 requirements, uh, fulfill those 8:14 requirements so that it doesn't become 8:16 an issue later on, like the Deputy 8:17 Governor of Bangka Belitung. Like that, 8:20 Mas. 8:20 >> Yes. Yes. Is there a need for pressure 8:23 for the Constitutional Court to summon, 8:25 uh, Gibran to provide testimony 8:27 directly in the proceedings, Bang Toni? 8:30 >> Yes, because as a party, uh, the 8:32 defendant, it is necessary to, uh, 8:35 still summon them, right? I mean, the 8:38 plaintiff and the defendant will be, uh 8:41 , brought face to face with each other, 8:44 you know, so that clearer information 8:46 can be obtained. Unless there is 8:50 something that can be represented by, 8:52 uh, their lawyer, for example, right? 8:55 Just follow the, what do you call it, 8:57 procedural law, uh, what is it called, 9:00 uh, the procedural law, there is a 9:02 procedural law, right. If this happens, 9:05 Bang Toni, uh, suppose this diploma's 9:09 authenticity turns out to be invalid, 9:12 will there be a replacement for 9:15 Gibran's position or how, Bang Toni? 9:18 >> Yes, we just wait because if it turns 9:20 out the Constitutional Court, well, it 9:21 depends on the Constitutional Court's 9:23 decision. 9:24 >> We also cannot speculate, it depends on 9:26 the Constitutional Court's decision. If 9:28 that happens, there are already 9:30 procedures, oh, constitutional or 9:31 constitutional law, right? What does 9:34 that mean? That if the Constitutional 9:37 Court, uh, makes a decision, for 9:39 example, it turns out his, uh, his 9:41 diploma is invalid, and that is then 9:44 considered, uh, something that 9:45 disqualifies him. What also needs to be 9:50 looked at, you know, uh, Gibran ran as 9:52 a pair. A pair at that time. So the 9:57 vice-presidential candidate and also 9:59 the president must both be valid. 10:03 >> When one is not valid, well, this is 10:06 logic, just logic. But later, legal 10:09 experts will make the decision if it 10:11 turns out one of them is invalid, is 10:13 the partnership still valid? 10:16 >> That's it. 10:17 >> Yeah. For example, a pair, two people, 10:21 it's like playing doubles, so to speak, 10:23 playing as a pair. 10:24 >> Yeah. 10:25 >> If it turns out one of the pair is 10:27 invalid, does this mean the pair is 10:30 also invalid? The candidacy is invalid. 10:32 Both of them are invalid, you see. 10:34 That's a different case. For instance, 10:37 when Gibran, after being inaugurated as 10:41 vice president, then has a moral, 10:44 ethical, or legal issue, a criminal act 10:47 , uh, commits a crime or corruption or 10:51 whatever, you know. Then the case is 10:55 purely focused on Gibran, you see. But 10:59 this case is about, uh, requirements. 11:02 If Gibran's eligibility, for instance, 11:05 is ruled invalid by the numbers, then 11:08 the logic that emerges for us is 11:11 whether that pair's candidacy would 11:14 still be considered valid. It’s as if 11:18 this pair is no longer a pair running 11:20 on their own. Because if one is invalid 11:24 , well, a presidential candidate isn't 11:27 allowed to run alone without a partner. 11:31 It’s the same as if, at that time, 11:34 Prabowo ran alone without a partner 11:36 because his partner was invalid. Would 11:39 Prabowo's candidacy then still be valid 11:41 ? That is the question. 11:42 >> Yes. This also becomes a separate issue 11:45 . 11:46 >> And we really shouldn't be caught in a 11:49 polemic like this—I mean, how long 11:51 will this continue, brother, when we 11:54 have to keep looking forward? 11:57 >> Yes. That's why some legal experts say 12:02 this is post factum; it's too late to 12:05 challenge the validity of a diploma. 12:09 Yeah. 12:09 >> Yes. Especially since this lawsuit 12:13 appeared after Jokowi's roadshow. 12:18 >> After PSI started becoming a topic of 12:21 conversation, the public interpreted it 12:23 as having political motives. Now, 12:28 regardless of all that, let us, what 12:30 should I say? We have serious issues in 12:35 this nation that haven't been resolved 12:39 yet. We continue to push for how this 12:45 can gradually improve, so these issues 12:48 can be reduced and solved one by one. 12:54 But again, it is every citizen's right 12:59 to criticize every process of our state 13:04 affairs, especially regarding officials 13:09 who determine the nation's fate. It is 13:14 a right, and that's not wrong, but one 13:17 shouldn't force it. Yes, this must be 13:20 viewed from two perspectives. One is 13:23 the normative perspective—is it 13:24 legally valid? That is every citizen's 13:27 right. Then the second is, we look at 13:33 it more wisely, that there are indeed 13:39 things that need to be prioritized 13:45 regarding our state issues, so we don't 13:53 keep getting trapped in matters that 13:59 end up creating more noise than 14:04 progress. And I personally have never 14:08 been interested in discussing diplomas. 14:12 In fact, my writings, I have almost no 14:14 writings about diplomas. 14:16 >> Because, indeed, 14:19 >> we can already gauge where it will lead 14:23 and what the productivity level is, and 14:27 that is a consideration for me not to 14:31 join in making noise 14:36 >> about the diploma issue. 14:38 >> That's it. Alright, from the diploma 14:41 issue, Bang Toni, let's shift a bit to 14:44 fuel prices—they say non-subsidized 14:48 fuel prices will rise in October 2026, 14:52 Bang Toni. There are so many 14:55 projections or estimates. Currently, 14:58 Pertamax Green 95 is at 19,150 per 15:01 liter, and this will become IDR 21,200 15:05 per liter. Pertamax Turbo, from IDR 15:09 19,600/L, will become IDR 21,450/L. 15:14 liter. Dexlite, IDR 23,700/L. becoming 15:19 IDR 25,000/L per liter. Meanwhile, 15:21 Pertamina Dex, from IDR 25,200/L. 15:25 becomes IDR 26,600/L. One of the 15:29 triggers is the price of processed 15:30 gasoline in Singapore or MOPS, which 15:32 rose by about 14%. However, for the 15:37 time being, thank God, the subsidized 15:41 fuel price, which is Pertalite, will 15:45 remain at IDR 10,000 per liter. 15:49 Regarding these projected fuel price 15:51 hikes, Bang Toni. How do you respond to 15:54 this, Bang Toni? Please go ahead. 15:57 >> Yes. First of all, it is indeed in a 16:02 difficult position for the government 16:06 >> to maintain prices due to the global 16:09 situation. 16:11 >> Yes. 16:13 >> There is a term called the 16:16 World-Systems Theory by Immanuel 16:20 Wallerstein; no country can stand alone 16:25 . Because everyone is interconnected 16:32 and dependent on one another, including 16:36 fuel. 16:38 >> Yes. 16:39 >> There are countries that produce oil, 16:42 those that lack it, those that can 16:44 process it, and those that cannot. That 16:48 is the cycle. Yes. 16:51 >> So when there is a problem or something 16:55 happens in one country, it affects 16:57 others. This actually stems from the 17:02 war between Iran, America, and so on. 17:07 Yes. 17:08 >> And then with Russia, whose refineries 17:12 were the solution for the blocked oil 17:17 route in the Strait of Hormuz. Turns 17:23 out those refineries were destroyed, so 17:26 the global fuel supply has decreased, 17:29 stalled, and so on, including for 17:32 Indonesia. There is also a suspicion 17:36 that Indonesia's contract with Russia 17:38 to stabilize fuel prices hit a snag 17:41 when those refineries had problems, 17:43 meaning the supply is also problematic. 17:46 >> Yes. This is what could make it 17:48 difficult since there are no other 17:49 alternatives yet. What are the 17:51 alternatives? Indonesia does not have 17:53 contracts with other sources. Including 17:57 the fact that we have been trading oil 18:04 through Singapore for so long. 18:09 >> A small country but with enough revenue 18:13 , so our oil is supplied by Singapore. 18:18 Meanwhile, there is the new Balikpapan 18:22 refinery, but its raw material supply 18:26 is still lacking. This is where oil 18:31 cartels become an issue that never 18:33 seems to end, even though Reza Chalid 18:36 was named a suspect and then 18:38 disappeared, the oil problem is still 18:41 not resolved. If we look back, 18:45 President Jokowi had extraordinary 18:47 ambition to solve the oil problem, but 18:50 it turns out it remains unfinished. The 18:53 same applies now, especially since the 18:57 problems faced by Mr. Prabowo's 18:59 government are becoming increasingly 19:02 dynamic and diverse. This is what then 19:06 makes oil. Now, one thing for me. Then, 19:09 secondly, let's not often use clichés 19:12 or reasons that lack objectivity, 19:16 >> reasons that lack honesty. Often people 19:19 say, "Well, the non-subsidized ones are 19:23 for the rich, so the rich don't deserve 19:26 subsidies," like that. As if they don't 19:30 understand macroeconomics at all. So if 19:34 the middle class sees oil prices rise, 19:36 production costs automatically go up. 19:40 >> Yeah. 19:41 >> Yes. For example, for companies that 19:44 are non-subsidized, their production 19:45 costs automatically rise, right? Then 19:49 there are the middle-class needs for 19:52 transportation, factory requirements, 19:54 and so on. If it's diesel or the like, 19:57 it will have an impact, right? If it 20:00 relates to that, automatically, the 20:03 executives in corporations must charge 20:06 more, adding more costs, right? If they 20:12 keep adding more while the public's 20:14 purchasing power is low, production 20:16 levels will automatically drop, right? 20:20 What happens then? It could lead to 20:23 layoffs in the middle class. So if it 20:25 becomes 10%, they have already dropped 20:27 into the lower class, right? This is 20:30 because, well, the economy is a system. 20:34 >> Yeah. 20:35 >> Right? A system is like this, you see. 20:39 The system is that a group consists of 20:46 parts, and when one part has a problem, 20:50 it affects the others. And in life, 20:56 that system principle applies. So you 21:03 can't just say that the rich don't need 21:05 subsidies because they are too wealthy, 21:08 and therefore it doesn't affect the 21:10 poor. You can't. If we use Smith's 21:15 invisible hand theory, for example, 21:18 where the rich get richer and it 21:20 trickles down to others. It's the same, 21:25 the problems faced by the rich will 21:27 also trickle down to the lower-class 21:29 society. And in the end, it affects 21:33 this nation as a whole. So, it's not 21:38 just productivity levels from the upper 21:41 or upper-middle class that trickle down 21:44 as drops of heaven for the lower-middle 21:48 class. But also, a decrease in 21:52 productivity, which becomes a problem 21:55 for the upper class, also trickles down 21:58 as hell for the lower-middle class. 22:02 >> Yes. 22:04 >> So don't just look at the positives 22:06 trickling down; the negatives also have 22:08 an impact—everything, whether 22:10 positive or negative, is part of the 22:13 system. 22:15 >> Yeah. 22:15 >> Right? Therefore, we can't just ignore 22:20 it; it must be truly calculated, the 22:23 impacts must be truly calculated. Then, 22:29 mitigated. Mitigation and at the same 22:33 time, this third point shows that yes, 22:36 the country indeed has fiscal issues, 22:38 right. Previously, Mr. Purbaya said the 22:41 fiscal situation was safe, safe, and 22:43 safe, right. Yesterday, there was also 22:46 a dispute about the 250 trillion 22:48 related to Danantara, between Danantara 22:50 and the Coordinating Ministry, right. 22:54 >> Which was then interpreted by the 22:56 public as a trigger, or one of the 22:59 triggers for Mr. Purbaya's dismissal, 23:01 because he was feuding with Danantara, 23:04 which is Mr. Prabowo's flagship product 23:07 , right. Not wrong, besides the removal 23:09 of hundreds, yes, the removal of 23:11 hundreds of other officials. Well, 23:13 public speculation ultimately points in 23:15 that direction. But all of this shows 23:19 that our fiscal situation really needs 23:22 to be managed. In the context of, uh, 23:28 being in this dilemma, we need more 23:31 accurate options, options that are more 23:34 measurable, especially regarding risk 23:37 mitigation or mitigating the effects of 23:41 a policy, so that it doesn't result in, 23:44 uh, the worsening of our economy, right 23:47 , Mas Agus? 23:50 >> But with the exchange rate that keeps 23:53 rising, hopefully it can go down, right 23:57 . Then oil prices which continue to 24:01 skyrocket, plus layoffs everywhere, and 24:05 people's purchasing power is also 24:07 getting lower. How can we survive this 24:12 situation, Bang Toni? So we see that in 24:18 the last two days, the rupiah against 24:21 the dollar has breached 18,000. 24:24 >> Yes. 24:28 >> It was, you know, yesterday it was 24:31 decent at 17,300, now it has breached 24:34 18,000 in these two days, even 24:36 fluctuating above 18,000. Then, also 24:43 the JCI, since this new minister, has 24:48 fallen by around 300 points. Today, I 24:53 see, or at yesterday's close, I checked 24:58 it was at 6,180-something. Previously, 25:04 before Purbaya was removed, it had 25:09 risen to 6,500-something. But why is it 25:15 falling now, and this could be a 25:18 warning if there is a fuel price hike 25:20 policy, investors will flee even more. 25:24 >> Hmm. 25:25 >> If investors flee, the JCI will plummet 25:27 further. 25:28 >> Yeah. Yes. It follows that people won't 25:32 bring dollars into Indonesia, which 25:34 ultimately, if there are many dollars, 25:36 the rupiah strengthens; if there are 25:38 few, the rupiah weakens, it's just a 25:40 matter of top-up. But if investment is 25:45 not conducive because of the rise in 25:47 production costs, with all those 25:50 increases, production costs will 25:52 automatically rise, right. 25:55 Automatically, production costs rise, 25:57 even if this isn't diesel, but the 25:59 middle class—and the middle class are 26:01 those who manage corporations. 26:04 Automatically, they use, you know, they 26:06 use this from the office, it goes up 26:07 too, the office gas usage goes up too, 26:09 right, using Pertamax for their cars. 26:12 It's impossible for a director to drive 26:14 what, it's impossible for a director to 26:16 drive an Avanza, that's impossible, 26:18 right? 26:20 >> They wouldn't use anything else, they 26:22 definitely use Pertamax if then 26:25 >> Uh, they wouldn't use diesel because 26:27 they have luxury cars, they must use 26:29 Dexlite or maybe Pertamina Dex. And if 26:33 all those prices go up, it 26:34 automatically becomes part of the 26:35 increase in production costs. If 26:38 production costs rise, it's not 26:40 conducive for, well, for corporate 26:42 processes. Ah, automatically if 26:46 investors, if those investors pull out 26:48 or at least don't come, the dollar will 26:51 automatically rise in price because 26:53 it's scarce, it's drained from 26:55 Indonesia, people take it elsewhere. 26:59 >> Now, if this continues like this, we 27:02 worry that what Ferry said, that the 27:06 dollar could reach 25,000, is 27:08 terrifying. That would be the end of 27:12 Indonesia. 27:12 >> Yes. No, not the end of Indonesia. 27:15 There is a stage that occurs that must 27:17 change. Forced to change. If the dollar 27:20 reaches that point, it's called a 27:22 monetary crisis. If the dollar hits 27:24 25,000. 27:25 >> Oh boy. So, indeed 27:28 >> these policies are all, in my opinion, 27:33 triggered by unwise fiscal policies. 27:40 >> In my opinion, yes. 27:42 >> Yes, why? Unwise fiscal policy because, 27:46 just look, the regional transfer funds 27:49 (TKD) were cut by 84 trillion last year 27:52 , 126 trillion this year, and 174 27:55 trillion next year. And this means 27:58 money isn't circulating. The new 28:01 programs are good, the intentions are 28:03 good, yes. I hope the processes are 28:05 continuously improved, both for the KMP 28:08 and MBG programs. Yeah. 28:10 >> But when it was implemented, I heard 28:12 Mr. Jokowi himself previously say, as 28:15 was... 28:18 >> In what, uh, one of the media, that it 28:21 should be done gradually, but because 28:24 it was done massively, it ended up 28:27 taking funds that should have been used 28:30 for other programs or routine programs 28:33 that were already running, ultimately 28:36 eating into the regional transfer funds 28:39 . TKD. 28:42 >> That is, regional transfer funds. The 28:44 regions aren't moving. If the regions 28:47 aren't moving, then corporations aren't 28:48 moving, money isn't circulating, and 28:50 economic growth declines. Public 28:53 purchasing power drops, and naturally, 28:55 corporations stop production. Okay. 28:57 That's when efficiency happens. 29:00 Efficiency isn't just for state funds, 29:02 but corporations also have to be 29:04 efficient. The easiest way for 29:07 efficiency, since productivity is down, 29:09 is through layoffs. Once there are 29:13 layoffs, more people are unemployed, 29:14 more people are poor, the poorer people 29:16 are, the lower the purchasing power, 29:18 and the lower the purchasing power, the 29:19 more sluggish the economic circulation 29:21 becomes. If it gets more sluggish, then 29:23 economic growth also falls. That's how 29:25 it is. 29:26 >> The sequence. 29:26 >> You know. 29:28 >> But even so 29:29 >> this must be cut, this satanic circle 29:32 >> yes. This is a satanic circle, yes. A 29:34 vicious cycle. Well, this vicious cycle 29:36 must be broken. Who has the power to 29:38 break it? Yes, the state. 29:41 >> Yes. But even though we see fluctuating 29:47 fuel prices, Bang Toni, and the 29:51 geopolitical map keeps changing, what 29:56 should we say? We see that many people 30:00 can still afford to buy cigarettes. 30:04 Bang Toni, according to National 30:06 Socio-Economic Survey data, cigarettes 30:09 play a significant role in poverty in 30:11 Indonesia, Bang Toni. Yes, including 30:16 contributing taxes and poverty. Then 30:19 wanting to categorize it as halal or 30:21 haram. No need for the haram debate. It 30:25 will never be finished, ever. 30:28 >> Yeah. 30:29 >> If taken to the extreme, it won't be 30:31 finished until the end of time. Some 30:33 scholars say it's haram, some say it's 30:35 permissible, others say it's makruh, 30:37 right? Those who say it's haram argue 30:40 the impact is clear and severe. Those 30:43 who say it's makruh acknowledge there 30:44 is an impact. Those who say it's 30:48 permissible argue like this: doctors 30:52 say every cigarette smoked reduces your 30:57 lifespan by, let's say, one second. 31:02 >> But smoking makes you happy, and being 31:05 happy adds two seconds, so there’s a 31:07 net gain—anyway, there are many 31:09 arguments, let's not get into the halal 31:12 debate, just this. 31:14 >> Yes, the discussion is just this, in my 31:16 opinion, which everyone agrees on. I 31:19 think everyone agrees that there is a 31:21 place for smoking. Yes. 31:25 >> You are free to smoke, you want to 31:27 damage your body, go ahead, if you feel 31:30 your throat isn't being damaged, that's 31:33 up to you. That's your business, but 31:35 don't disturb people. 31:37 >> Who don't smoke. 31:39 >> Therefore, there must be criminal laws 31:41 for those who smoke and disturb others 31:43 while doing so. 31:45 >> Uh-huh. 31:47 >> Like that. This must be included in the 31:51 planning of the criminal law revision. 31:56 >> So when someone smokes in a public 31:59 place and others feel disturbed, they 32:02 have the right to file a complaint; it 32:05 should be a complaint-based offense. 32:09 Granted the right to file a 32:10 complaint-based offense. 32:12 >> Uh-huh. Well, in my opinion, there will 32:15 be many such complaints, and it's not a 32:18 small number of cases where a husband 32:20 smokes and the wife becomes a passive 32:22 smoker. Then problems arise due to 32:26 smoking, and it's not a small issue; 32:29 these are results from doctors ' 32:30 treatments, you know. 32:34 >> Results from doctors' research show 32:37 that many wives are affected, becoming 32:41 passive smokers because of their 32:44 husbands 'active smoking. Ah, what do I 32:48 mean? Well, we might also be exposed, 32:50 those of us who don't smoke; smokers 32:52 should gather with other smokers and 32:54 smoke there. But if there is someone 32:57 who doesn't smoke, they shouldn't smoke 32:59 there, or they should move away. 33:02 >> Unless the non-smoker is fine with it, 33:04 then go ahead, that’s no problem. 33:08 >> There are even people who like to smoke 33:09 on motorcycles while riding, in cars 33:11 while driving, and then toss the butts 33:12 out, right? In my opinion, to protect 33:16 the health and safety of citizens, 33:20 there needs to be a clause in the 33:24 criminal code to penalize those who 33:28 disturb others. It’s not just other 33:32 types of disturbances, but cigarette 33:34 smoke is also a form of disturbance to 33:36 other people, you see. Go ahead if you 33:39 want to debate whether it's haram, 33:40 halal, makruh, and so on. The MUI 33:43 doesn't need to get involved in that. 33:44 If they get involved, there will just 33:46 be more controversy and noise. I am 33:48 sure a cigarette ban won't happen, 33:50 especially since the state has no 33:51 interest in banning smoking because it 33:54 actually needs the tax revenue. The 33:57 state needs corporations for labor 33:59 absorption and so on. There are all 34:03 sorts of reasons, you know. But in this 34:05 context, smoking shouldn't be allowed 34:07 to harm other people. 34:09 >> Yes, I agree with that. Not harming 34:12 others. That's why some say you can 34:14 smoke, but swallow the smoke, right, 34:16 Bang Toni? 34:18 >> Well, exactly, the cigarette should be 34:20 swallowed. 34:21 >> If it's in a public space, but in a 34:23 space designated for smoking, maybe 34:25 people wouldn't, what do you call it, 34:27 complain. Bang Toni, we are limited by 34:30 time, Bang Toni. Maybe you have a brief 34:32 conclusion for our discussion today. 34:35 >> Yes. We need to be wise in choosing 34:39 what issues or problems should be the 34:43 priority in our efforts to resolve this 34:47 nation's challenges. No. Not all issues 34:52 should be prioritized just because they 34:55 are popular or trendy; rather, the 34:57 standard should be how significant a 34:59 contribution the issue makes to the 35:02 nation when addressed. The orientation 35:06 should be improving this country 35:08 through priority issues. Not every 35:12 issue should be raised if it only 35:15 creates noise, which means there must 35:18 be certain limits when raising these 35:21 issues. 35:22 >> Yes. Yes. 35:23 >> What is the target? Because performance 35:25 must be measurable. It's not just about 35:29 heroism, but every task dedicated to 35:32 the state, nation, and people must 35:35 truly be measured because the results 35:38 are what the people eventually enjoy, 35:41 not the process. Like that. 35:44 >> Yes. Alright, Bang Toni. Thank you very 35:47 much for your insights this morning. 35:50 Thank you. Peace be upon you, Bang Toni 35:53 . 35:53 >> And peace be upon you too. 35:54 >> Alright, brothers and sisters. That was 35:57 our dialogue with Dr. Toni Rosid, a 35:59 national observer and socio-political 36:02 analyst. 
