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0:01 Even Mahfud MD said, if I'm not 0:03 mistaken, that even an angel would turn 0:05 into a corrupt official if they became 0:07 an official in Indonesia. TV. 0:19 Peace be upon you, Bang Toni. 0:22 And peace be upon you too. Brother. 0:24 Are you well, Bang Toni? 0:25 Alhamdulillah, I am well. Good, Bang 0:29 Toni. There are a few topics we'd like 0:32 to discuss regarding the buzz this past 0:34 week, Bang Toni. In the last few days, 0:38 the public has been presented with news 0:40 . There are three series of news 0:43 reports that, if examined, share a 0:45 strong common thread: the issues of 0:48 integrity, governance, and leadership. 0:54 On one hand, there is the admission 0:56 from the attorney for Don Rito that the 0:59 house in Sentul raided by investigators 1:01 belongs to J Pitsus Febri Adriansyah, 1:03 said to have been borrowed since 2023 1:05 for a foundation's operations, 1:07 including a safe containing tens of 1:09 kilograms of gold and millions of 1:11 dollars claimed to belong to the 1:13 foundation. This case raises big 1:21 questions about asset transparency and 1:23 the relationship between individuals in 1:25 high positions and the activities of 1:27 institutions managing massive amounts 1:29 of funds. On the other hand, Bang Toni, 1:36 experts are warning that between 2025 1:39 and mid-2026, 17 regional heads have 1:42 already been...The results of the 2024 1:44 regional elections are being entangled 1:47 by the KPK. President Prabowo is being 1:54 urged to use meetings with regional 1:56 heads as a momentum for systemic reform 1:58 , starting from addressing political 2:00 costs, governance of parties, to 2:02 strengthening internal regional 2:04 oversight. The message is very clear. 2:10 Corruption is not just an individual 2:12 issue, but a systemic one. Now, thirdly 2:18 , from the realm of religious 2:20 organizations, a senior NU figure who 2:22 is also the Deputy Chairman of MUI, K. 2:25 H. Marsudi Suhud, stated he is ready to 2:27 run as a candidate for PBNU chairman in 2:30 the upcoming congress. And 2:36 interestingly, he emphasizes that his 2:38 life has never been separated from the 2:41 spirit of service or dedication. For 2:46 him, leadership is not just a position, 2:48 but a mandate to serve the people and 2:51 improve the organization. Alright, Bang 2:54 Toni. From this series of information 2:58 circulating this week, how do you, as 3:00 an observer of the nation and political 3:02 analyst, see this? Please, go ahead, 3:06 Bang. 3:08 Alright, Brother Agus and all Rasil 3:10 listeners, regarding that, it was once 3:12 mentioned... 3:15 In the Tempo podcast, the "bocor halus" 3:18 one. 3:19 Yeah. admitting the scenario...the 3:28 scenarios that were then created to, 3:31 you know, how to save the case in 3:33 Sentul; that’s roughly what the 3:34 podcast was about, or so it seemed. And 3:42 then now it appears, whereas at that 3:44 time, the public started to be framed, 3:46 the public started to...how to design, 3:53 you know, the way of thinking related 3:55 to what is in Sentul. It seems like 3:58 there’s some engineering, there’s a 4:00 plan for engineering, I suppose. So 4:03 when it comes up now regarding the case 4:05 of, uh, money or something in Sentul, 4:08 and a foundation appears, public 4:10 perception has already been formed, you 4:12 see. 4:14 Yes. 4:15 The question arises: is this part of 4:17 the scenario that was previously—this 4:19 is the question—is this part of... 4:22 The scenario that was discussed in the 4:24 Bocor Halus podcast back then, right? 4:26 Yes. But often, in general, the legal 4:37 facts and trial facts are perceived by 4:39 the public as having so much 4:41 involvement and intervention that it 4:43 creates scenarios that are, well, far 4:45 from the truth. So, legal facts and 4:56 trial facts often do not match the 4:58 actual reality. Especially if it 5:02 involves elites, and there are many of 5:04 them. Let me illustrate, Mas Sakdus, in 5:09 many legal facts. The cases that are 5:15 often brought up are related to, uh, 5:19 regional heads, right. The cases that 5:23 are often brought up, including by the 5:25 KPK, are not really that significant in 5:27 value. 5:31 Yes. For example, a regent is arrested 5:35 in a sting operation for 100 million; 5:37 that's just petty cash. 5:40 Yes. Yeah. Arrested for 200 million. A 5:45 governor arrested for 100 million. 5:50 People running for governor spend 5:52 between 500 billion to 1 trillion. 5:55 Yeah. 5:56 And they make an issue out of 100 5:58 million. Why? Is it really just that 6:02 much? Why not 50 billion or 200 billion 6:07 ? Infrastructure projects alone, just 6:14 for roads, are at least hundreds of 6:16 billions, so how could it be only 100 6:19 or 200, right? Yes. This has become an 6:26 issue that I think needs systemic 6:28 reform, and it must come from the top, 6:30 not just from the bottom. This is what 6:40 often happens; Indonesia still has a 6:42 systemic virus, so frankly, I am not 6:44 too interested in discussing one case 6:46 in complete and comprehensive detail. 6:54 Why? Because this is just one piece 6:59 representing so many cases, and it's 7:01 just a random sampling—in survey 7:03 terms—of many cases. 7:09 If you want to survey a whole village, 7:11 it's impossible to ask everyone or give 7:13 everyone a questionnaire. 7:18 At most, you ask 100 people out of tens 7:20 of thousands, right? Well, as long as 7:26 the sampling is correct, it represents 7:28 the cases, just like the one in Sentul 7:31 represents other cases. 7:34 Yes. 7:35 The public doesn't really trust them 7:37 anymore, so what can they do? But the 7:39 public also can't do anything but be 7:41 apathetic. 7:42 Yeah. Yeah. 7:44 Right? Especially if person A is 7:47 someone's protégé, who they are 7:49 connected to, how much money, and so on 7:51 . If there is a case like that, the 7:56 level of fabrication is usually very 7:58 high. 8:00 Yes. 8:01 Because they don't want to. Why is it 8:03 that they take a case of 100 million 8:05 instead of 200 billion, for example? If 8:08 it were 200 billion, it would target 8:10 the big players. But if it's only 100 8:13 million, it only targets the small 8:15 players; there's no need for the big 8:17 ones because it's too much trouble to 8:19 target those that involve the big 8:21 figures. 8:22 Yes. So corruption in Indonesia is not 8:25 a solitary act, especially when it 8:27 involves hundreds of billions to 8:29 trillions. 8:31 It is never alone. But if they only 8:35 corrupt 50 million or a few million, 8:36 that can be localized and handled 8:38 easily. Especially if it then has 8:44 connections to the political interests 8:46 involved within it. The important thing 8:55 is that the regent or that position is 8:57 removed, localized, finding a small 8:58 case to settle it so it doesn't involve 9:00 others, which can be long, 9:02 energy-draining, and challenging. 9:08 And that happens all the time in 9:09 Indonesia, and there's a lot of it. 9:17 The case in Sentul is just one of many, 9:19 so we shouldn't be surprised or waste 9:21 our energy on it; it will never end 9:22 until there is a radical and systemic 9:24 change for this nation, and that change 9:26 must start from those in power, not 9:28 from below. Let's talk about regents, 9:37 governors, mayors, and so on; the 9:39 political costs are indeed high, right? 9:43 The political costs are high. There 9:45 needs to be a mechanism so that 9:47 political costs are not high. How, for 9:50 example? Well, let the state facilitate 9:54 the campaigning. For instance, they pay 9:59 their own campaign costs of 100 million 10:01 , and they don't need to campaign 10:03 themselves. The KPU should act when 10:07 they violate the rules, and they must 10:09 be disqualified. When the law is 10:13 enforced, it serves its function; 10:15 beyond justice, it serves as a 10:16 preventive measure so they don't commit 10:19 violations. I often use this analogy: 10:23 if someone crosses at a red light, they 10:29 get caught and ticketed; just create 10:31 ten such cases, ticket them all, and 10:33 brand it. Do you think people would 10:37 think twice before running a red light? 10:40 Yeah. 10:41 Motorbikes at a red light. Motorbikes 10:43 are usually in front of the...what? Not 10:45 behind the red line, they are past the 10:47 red light. They move too far forward. 10:49 So they don't know that the light has 10:51 changed from red to yellow to green. 10:53 They don't know. How do they know? The 10:55 people behind them honk their horns. Oh 10:57 , it means the light has changed. If 11:03 those people were just immediately 11:05 ticketed, would Indonesia change? 11:09 Regarding what? 11:12 Road traffic, would it change? Ah, 11:17 it’s the same with those candidates 11:19 for office—those running for governor 11:21 , regent, mayor, or regional head— 11:23 they need to be dealt with firmly 11:24 according to election law. It would 11:29 change, they would be afraid of 11:30 spending money only to be disqualified. 11:33 Whoever hands out money, disqualify 11:35 them, and that's it. 11:36 Yes. 11:36 Whoever spends money, disqualify them. 11:39 The problem is, the authorities 11:40 themselves are involved in the game; 11:42 that is the real problem. Who can stop 11:44 the officials at the top? That's the 11:46 first factor. The second factor is, the 11:50 second factor is uh, there are those 11:54 contributions from regional heads. 11:57 Yeah. 11:57 Well, contributions from where? It 11:59 couldn't possibly be from personal 12:01 money. So it's taken from the regional 12:04 budget through projects and so on and 12:06 so forth. So, as long as those 12:10 contributions aren't stopped, 12:12 corruption is bound to happen. Yeah, 12:16 that's the problem. This isn't about 12:19 morals, but about the system. 12:21 Hm. 12:23 That's why there's a term, I forget the 12:25 foreign phrase for it. So when a good 12:30 person is in a bad system, they will 12:32 become bad. A bad person in a good 12:37 system will become good. It got to the 12:41 point where Mahfud MD said, if I recall 12:43 , that even an angel becoming an 12:45 official in Indonesia would turn bad. 12:50 Ah, that follows the theory that a bad 12:53 person in a good system becomes good, 12:55 but a good person in a bad system ends 12:57 up becoming bad too. Now, that's 13:01 roughly the picture not just for 13:03 regional heads, but for all state 13:05 institutions. But when we talk about 13:09 regional heads like that, there are 13:11 mandatory contributions they have to 13:13 make, and it’s impossible otherwise 13:15 —they have to be corrupt; this isn't 13:17 the cause, but the effect. 13:20 Yeah. 13:21 Of a system. 13:23 A very expensive election system. Then, 13:30 the legal system which is so loose, and 13:32 the officials who are also playing 13:34 along, that leads to those 13:36 contributions and so on, which they 13:38 have no choice but to follow. So don't 13:43 just look at the 17. 13:46 In fact, I specifically appreciate 13:49 those 17. These 17 are a sample of 13:53 those who were saved by circumstances, 13:55 which in the end will make them good. 13:59 Just imagine if they were allowed to 14:01 continue indefinitely. 14:02 Yeah. 14:03 If the others were just left alone. If 14:08 we speak as religious people, they are 14:10 the lucky ones because they were saved 14:12 by God, so they didn't do it anymore. 14:16 Because there is no other way to save 14:18 them except that way. 14:20 Yeah. 14:21 How else could they be saved from what? 14:23 From corruption, if not for that. 14:25 Without that, they wouldn't be saved. 14:27 What about the others? Does it mean the 14:29 others aren't corrupt? Oh, the others 14:31 are far more numerous and far worse. 14:36 That means with the 17 regional heads 14:38 caught by the KPK in such a short time. 14:44 So, is the main issue not just 14:46 individual morals, but the high cost of 14:48 politics, weak oversight, or is it a 14:50 combination of everything, Bang Toni? 14:54 Yes. Yes. No matter how strong their 14:59 morals are, if they don't follow the 15:01 established system, would they be 15:02 strong enough? Do you think they would 15:08 just resign? 15:09 Yes. 15:11 Yes, there are social and political 15:12 risks when resigning. What are the 15:14 political risks? Well, no other party 15:17 will want to nominate them again. Yes, 15:20 what is the political risk? When they 15:23 want to hold any position later, people 15:25 will already be apathetic. What are the 15:27 social risks? Oh, the public will 15:29 consider them irresponsible people. So 15:32 the situation is dire. On one hand, 15:35 they have to follow a system. On the 15:38 other hand, there are threats of 15:40 political and social punishment. That 15:44 is the problem. And I think everyone 15:47 realizes that. So is the solution to 15:51 just give them advice? No. A prayer 15:54 gathering? No. 15:57 Because the problem isn't there. The 15:59 problem isn't moral. The problem is in 16:01 the system. When it comes to morals, 16:03 that's a small part of it. For instance 16:05 , having to pay "deposits" to A, B, C, 16:08 or D. If they don't pay, it becomes a 16:10 problem for them, so they pay. That’s 16:13 where they distinguish themselves; they 16:15 pay the deposit but don't take the 16:16 money, they don't participate in taking 16:18 it. But that is still corruption, even 16:23 if it's not for themselves, because 16:25 corruption harms the state's interest 16:27 to benefit oneself or others. Now, if 16:32 they don't benefit themselves, does 16:34 that mean they are moral? But no, if 16:36 they benefit others, individually, they 16:38 are considered moral, right? But 16:41 benefiting others is still corruption, 16:43 or maybe they send a lot elsewhere but 16:45 keep a little for themselves. What 16:48 distinguishes them is whether they are 16:50 moral, whether they, whether they are " 16:56 eating" it, or perhaps only taking a 16:57 little or a lot? That is what 17:01 differentiates that modality, right. 17:04 Yes. Yeah. 17:05 Distinguishing. Therefore, in my 17:08 opinion, the system must be fixed. So 17:12 we need to look at what the causative 17:14 factors are. 17:16 Yes. 17:17 Now, if the causative factor is moral, 17:19 then bring in a cleric. This causative 17:21 factor is not a moral factor. People 17:23 often misunderstand. Ah, there is a 17:25 moral element. Yes, but that is not the 17:28 main factor. Let's say so. Then the 17:31 distribution of that variable is small. 17:36 Its influence is small, but the 17:37 greatest influence is what? The system. 17:40 So as long as the system is not fixed, 17:43 no. That's why I say, what's it called, 17:45 morality. Secondly, is it finished when 17:49 the President urges them not to be 17:51 corrupt? Not really, as long as they 17:55 live within that system. 17:57 Yeah. 17:57 Right? No. Does it help if they are 18:00 gathered by the President to do what? 18:03 To be urged not to be corrupt. It 18:05 doesn't work, it has no effect. They 18:07 have retreats too, right, to 18:10 be given an understanding of integrity. 18:12 Does that have any effect? Is there any 18:14 difference between regional heads in 18:15 Mr. Prabowo's era compared to Mr. 18:17 Jokowi's and SBY's eras? None at all. 18:22 Then, when there’s an assumption that 18:23 they are corrupt and then they are " 18:25 made efficient," who becomes the victim 18:26 ? The people. 18:29 Uh-huh. Does it mean that after being 18:32 made efficient, fewer people are 18:33 corrupt? No, because the system is 18:35 still running. Instead, the money is 18:38 circulated at the top, while it doesn't 18:40 circulate at the bottom. What is the 18:42 result? Economic growth is around 80% 18:45 there, but regional economic growth is 18:47 below 55%. Why? Because the money 18:50 doesn't stay there, or it circulates 18:52 very little. 18:54 And this is also a homework assignment 18:56 for the current Prabowo administration, 18:58 brother. And also for the Gerindra 19:01 Party, because SMRC's survey shows 19:03 public satisfaction with Prabowo has 19:05 dropped sharply. This is related to 19:11 politics, then economic conditions, and 19:13 the law enforcement we are discussing 19:15 now. 19:19 There are at least four things 19:20 regarding that. 19:22 Uh-huh. 19:23 I am writing this and will post it 19:24 later. 19:24 Yes. Hopefully, I can post it today. So 19:27 , the first is Mr. Prabowo’s 19:29 narrative. 19:30 Uh-huh. 19:31 It is confrontational, harsh. Then it 19:35 targets, what? Targeting the media, 19:40 observers, NGOs, right? And that is 19:45 unnecessary, and then the people don't 19:47 eat dollars; village people don't eat 19:49 dollars and so on, right? So, these 19:56 political narratives or political 19:58 communications are important, and they 20:00 can potentially boost things. The 20:08 second is the governance and 20:10 supervision of a program. Yes, I have 20:14 always consistently said that the Free 20:17 Nutritious Meal (MBG) is good and 20:19 necessary, but what is the governance 20:21 like? What is the supervision like? If 20:28 MBG, for example, were tested first in 20:30 100 3T regions (remote, outermost, 20:33 underdeveloped areas that need it), 20:35 then evaluated, improved, and 20:37 synergized with the KMP (Food Supply 20:40 Unit), for example, so that the KMP 20:42 becomes the main supplier, taking goods 20:45 from the community to enter it, yes, 20:48 micro-MSMEs, people's small businesses, 20:50 included there to supply the needs of 20:53 the MPK. I think both can work. Not a 20:59 KMP located on the edge of a cemetery. 21:04 In my village, the KMP is on the edge 21:07 of a grave, far from the community, 21:09 about 500 meters to nearly 1 kilometer. 21:14 Uh-huh. 21:15 That is the distance from the community 21:17 where many residents live, right? 21:21 That's why in this context, it is 21:23 highlighted by the public, like, why is 21:25 it so messy? Even though for the 21:29 lower-class society, this is needed. Oh 21:32 , just imagine poor people getting food 21:34 in the village, getting food when they 21:36 usually don't have breakfast, getting 21:38 breakfast, and there's fruit and milk 21:40 too. That is really wow. 21:42 Yes. 21:43 Really wow, right? And it is very, very 21:45 needed to help those children and help 21:47 their parents. The problem is, well, uh 21:50 , many are misdirected, and the 21:52 management is chaotic; for instance, 21:55 the 10,000 rupiah funds intended for 21:57 food are often skimmed off. Yes, if you 22:00 look, at most it’s 7,000; some are 22:02 7,000 or 8,000, it’s already been 22:04 corrupted there. And then thirdly, Mr. 22:07 Prabowo indeed has the intention to 22:08 address corruption, but the people 22:10 around him are, uh, involved in 22:12 corruption, like the head of the MPR. 22:14 Yeah. 22:15 Right? A lot of corruption is happening 22:17 . It means anti-corruption, preventing 22:21 corruption with a system so that 22:23 people's room to commit corruption 22:24 becomes narrow, which ultimately 22:26 reduces the number of corruptors, you 22:28 know. And more of the state's assets 22:32 are saved. That is what is called 22:33 anti-corruption. 22:34 Yes. 22:36 But if the number of corruption cases 22:38 and the value of corruption are not any 22:40 less than before, then the narratives 22:42 of fighting corruption are also 22:43 meaningless. Now, for Mr. Prof, for 22:46 example, saying "I'll brush aside even 22:49 my close associates" is quite hard to 22:52 use to build such, uh, narratives. That 22:55 is one of the factors that, indeed, 22:58 dragged it down, so that the 23:00 electability dropped by 14.5%, right. 23:03 Yes. For someone holding control of all 23:08 state instruments with logistical power 23:10 and where every performance is 23:12 saturated in the media, it really 23:14 becomes a serious issue, you know, 23:16 their satisfaction level from... 23:21 November 2025 was 81%. Then in March 23:27 2026, it dropped to 70-something 23:29 percent, and now it’s 51.1%according 23:33 to SMRC, right. 23:34 That also becomes a problem, right. 23:40 There was a survey institute that then 23:42 stated to the media that this institute 23:44 did not make a statement, did not 23:46 release, uh, did not release its survey 23:48 , but the results of the survey 23:50 circulated everywhere; what is that 23:52 called? But, but it is interesting, you 23:58 know. Why? Uh, this is an interesting 24:01 question politically, yes. Yes. 24:03 Why did SMRC, last week, right, last 24:06 Wednesday we had an interview, right? 24:08 Yeah. Yes. Sir, as... 24:13 I said before, right, so, why did SMRC 24:15 only release the satisfaction level on 24:17 Monday and not release the electability 24:20 level anywhere? If you release it, 24:24 usually everything is presented at once 24:26 , right. Yeah. 24:27 Uh, finally on Wednesday night it was 24:29 released after I spoke, the release 24:31 regarding electability; what does that 24:33 mean? It is fit and proper to question 24:38 what kind of design there is behind 24:40 this, uh, fragmented release, right. 24:46 Likewise with others, why say it wasn't 24:48 released? It’s usually fine to 24:52 release it, right, that’s just how it 24:54 is, you know, called a survey and then 24:56 it gets released, that’s a normal 24:58 thing, but then it spreads everywhere, 25:00 the results are the same, so what is 25:03 this, there is another institute as 25:05 well. So there are three survey 25:09 institutes that conducted that survey, 25:11 one of which is still, uh, from the 25:13 palace circles, and the results are 25:15 similar, so they aren't widely disputed 25:17 . Likewise, now there is, there is 25:21 another survey going on. I am waiting 25:23 for one more institute. So I apologize 25:26 for not mentioning those survey 25:28 institutes because it is a matter of 25:30 ethics, as the people who conduct the 25:32 surveys talk to me. It is, it is a code 25:35 of ethics. There is one more survey 25:37 institute currently doing what I am 25:38 doing. I don’t know if it’s 25:40 finished by today or not. And I am 25:42 certain it won’t be released if the 25:44 results don't favor those funding the 25:46 release. But if the results are 25:48 favorable, it will be released. Well, 25:50 let’s wait and see if it gets 25:51 released or not. If it’s not released 25:53 , I am sure not all of it is like that. 25:55 Not everything will be released. Now, 25:57 that is part of the game, isn't it, 25:59 with survey institutes. But 26:05 substantively, the survey results, we 26:07 have to acknowledge them, especially 26:09 those from mainstream survey institutes 26:11 . Unless, of course, while remaining 26:16 critical, some are apathetic and say, " 26:19 Right, those survey institutes are just 26:21 toys," feel free. But for me, as long 26:29 as the survey standards are met and I 26:31 can communicate with a number of survey 26:33 institutes, as long as those surveys 26:35 are conducted correctly, regardless of 26:37 how they are released, who funds them, 26:39 or what political motives exist, I will 26:42 still look at the results. So the 26:50 survey process is carried out using 26:52 scientific methodology. Whatever the 26:56 results, I still must, and we all 26:58 should, acknowledge them. 27:00 Right. At the very least, it becomes a 27:03 barometer when we judge someone, right, 27:06 Bang? 27:07 Oh, yes. Yes. That is another matter. 27:10 Regarding how to judge the survey 27:12 institutes. Do survey institutes even 27:14 have the money to conduct surveys for 27:15 free? Not really, right. And certainly, 27:18 there are interests at play. Whether 27:22 the results match the funders or not is 27:24 another matter. Whether they are 27:26 released or not is another matter. 27:28 Whether the release is done in a 27:30 certain way is also another matter. But 27:35 the survey results, as long as the 27:36 survey methodology is correct and 27:38 conducted honestly, we must also be 27:40 able to accept that. 27:44 Right. Lastly, Bang, regarding the 35th 27:48 NU Congress where K.H. Marsudi Suhud 27:51 emphasized the concept of khidmah as 27:53 the foundation for leadership. What is 27:57 your opinion on that, Bang? 27:59 Well, it's all just marketing. That’s 28:01 what you call branding. So, if Mas Agus 28:03 said earlier that there is nothing 28:05 interesting, then there really isn't. 28:07 Yeah. Unless someone said, for example, 28:12 "If I am asked by the Nahdliyin to run, 28:14 I have no reason not to run.""I will, 28:20 because this is my path of service in 28:22 NU," that would be good. So if I’m 28:27 not asked, why would I even run? In 28:29 Islam, we are taught that we should not 28:31 be ambitious. If, if ambition, if then 28:34 we put ourselves forward, it is 28:35 considered a part of, there's an 28:37 indicator that it is a part of ambition 28:39 . So the language can be changed. In NU 28:43 itself and several, er, what, mass 28:45 organizations, it's already like a 28:47 party during election candidates. So 28:51 there is competition and an 28:53 extraordinary game. I think it should 28:55 be like this. I am an NU person, yes, I 28:57 am the former chairman of IPNU. So, er, 28:59 it should be, well, everyone, if I am 29:02 asked, then thank God, er, I will have 29:05 no reason. But, if there is someone 29:07 better, please, there are A, B, C, D; 29:10 those are special scholars, scholars 29:12 who have experience, scholars who have 29:15 integrity that is well-known, and so on 29:17 . I think if it is led by Kiai A, Kiai 29:20 B, Kiai C, whoever it is, NU will be 29:23 better, yes. But if then, suppose the 29:29 journalist asks like that, suppose you, 29:32 Pak Kiai, are asked by, well, if I am 29:34 indeed asked and urged to join and 29:36 there is no way to, to get out, to 29:39 avoid it, then what can I do, bismillah 29:41 , it is called, er, the path of service 29:44 . But I have no ambition, I have no 29:49 desire to become chairman. But if I am 29:51 then given the mandate, I will carry it 29:53 out. That would be interesting. 29:55 Yes, 29:56 like that. That would be interesting. 30:00 Ah, we hope that Islamic mass 30:02 organizations uphold the dignity of 30:04 their organizations in ways like this 30:06 so they can be a model, be an example, 30:08 be able to provide a reference for the 30:11 next generations. The students, well, 30:16 everyone in NU is a student, right? 30:19 Give an example like that. Not then, er 30:23 , like a campaign team, creating a 30:25 campaign team, then, oh, this has gone 30:28 too far. Now, this is when an internal 30:33 conflict happens, it's time for NU to 30:35 self-reflect, especially PBNU to 30:37 self-reflect. Likewise, for example, 30:42 Gus Yahya or those who have been 30:44 involved in the conflict all this time, 30:46 just let it go, don't run for office 30:48 again. So it's kind of improper, yes, 30:54 er, this is about the dignity of the 30:56 scholars, it's not fitting to then 30:59 offer oneself to run. 31:03 Yeah. 31:03 Like saying I will run, I will do this, 31:05 I will improve things. Yes, if then I 31:07 will improve things, everyone also 31:08 wants to improve things, you know. 31:10 Yes. 31:11 All, if all serve, all the reasons must 31:14 be for service, right? Yes, regardless 31:18 of Kiai Masudi or anyone, everyone, er, 31:21 I am sure the scholars want to serve. 31:26 It's just that they are often stirred 31:28 up by others who then enter into a, er, 31:31 sort of party system to fight for it. 31:34 Even though NU scholars are 31:36 extraordinary, yes. NU scholars are a 31:38 reservoir of learned people, a 31:40 reservoir of sincere people, people who 31:42 are honest, a reservoir of people who 31:45 are, er, what's it called? Building the 31:48 integrity of students, preparing for 31:50 the future of moral leaders. That is, 31:54 among others, the character of NU, 31:56 because NU is a majority organization. 32:02 Do not let it be ruined because some 32:04 people show ambition to become leaders 32:06 in PBNU and then use political 32:08 party-style maneuvers that, in my 32:10 opinion, are inappropriate. Mass 32:15 organizations are different from 32:17 political parties. The character of a 32:19 mass organization should be maintained, 32:21 it should not be mixed with political 32:23 character, because in mass 32:25 organizations, it is high politics, not 32:27 pragmatic politics. 32:28 Yes. Alright, thank you Bang Toni for 32:32 our dialogue this morning, Bang Toni. 32:36 Thank you very much, and perhaps as a 32:38 closing, Bang Toni. 32:40 Yeah. Yes. That once again, Indonesia 32:45 is currently in a, quote-unquote, 32:47 period of transition. Let us remain 32:52 honest. First, we must continue to have 32:56 sensitivity toward the history of this 32:58 nation with all the events that have 33:00 occurred. Then we strive to be present 33:05 to make a contribution. Then the second 33:08 thing is that we must be objective and 33:10 honest about all existing realities. 33:13 Yes, if we are not objective, not 33:15 honest, if everything is driven by... 33:19 ...interests, then everything will be 33:21 ruined. Then, the third thing. What is 33:26 good, we support; what is good, we back 33:28 and support. Then, what is bad, we 33:33 criticize as part of our presence, 33:35 amidst this nation's journey, to keep 33:37 supporting it so that this nation stays 33:39 on the right track, not veering to the 33:41 right or left, but on a straight path 33:44 in accordance with the nation's ideals. 33:47 Becoming a nation that is 'baldatun 33:49 thayyibatun wa rabbun ghafur'(a good 33:50 land with a forgiving Lord). That is 33:52 the Belief in the One and Only God, 33:53 which concludes with social justice for 33:55 all the people of Indonesia. That's it. 33:57 Alright, thank you Bang Toni for the 33:59 dialogue. Stay healthy always, Bang 34:01 Toni. God willing, we will meet again 34:03 next Wednesday. Peace be upon you, and 34:05 Allah's mercy and blessings, Bang Toni. 34:07 And peace be upon you, and Allah's 34:09 mercy and blessings. Yeah. 
