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0:08 Brail TV. 0:16 Peace be upon you, and Allah's mercy 0:17 and blessings. 0:19 And peace be upon you, and Allah's 0:20 mercy and blessings. Mas Agus, 0:21 how are you, Doctor? Are you well, 0:23 Doctor? 0:23 Praise be to God. 0:26 I am well, Doctor. We are observing the 0:30 latest developments in the Middle East, 0:33 and we would like to highlight the 0:35 ongoing situation regarding Iran. 0:39 Because the international community's 0:41 focus is indeed on the conflict between 0:44 Israel, the United States, and also 0:46 Iran. We see that the situation between 0:50 Iran, Israel, and the United States has 0:52 not truly subsided. One of the most 0:57 attention-grabbing reports comes from 1:00 American media, stating that U.S. 1:02 defense missile stockpiles have seen a 1:05 very significant decline after facing 1:08 Iranian missile attacks. Reports from 1:13 the U.S. Department of Defense mention 1:15 that most of the interceptor missile 1:17 stock has been depleted, by 1:19 approximately 80%. This was also 1:24 mentioned earlier by Mr. Ihsan in the 1:27 news segment, where these interceptor 1:29 missiles were used in regional defense 1:32 operations, raising concerns about U.S. 1:35 military readiness if the conflict 1:38 escalates again. However, at the same 1:44 time, Doctor, reports have emerged that 1:46 Iran sees positive signs in talks with 1:49 Oman regarding the Strait of Hormuz. 1:53 The narrow strait, which serves as a 1:56 major global oil shipping route, has 1:58 long been considered one of the most 2:00 strategic points on the planet. But if 2:05 tensions in Hormuz rise again, the 2:08 impact will not only be felt by Gulf 2:11 countries but will also be reflected in 2:14 energy prices, global inflation, and 2:17 the economies of developing countries, 2:20 including Indonesia. On the other hand, 2:26 Iran has also emphasized that the 2:29 Palestinian issue will remain a 2:31 priority and stated it will respect 2:34 Hamas's decisions in the negotiation 2:37 process. Conversely, various reports 2:42 mention new military preparations by 2:44 the United States and Israel. Meanwhile 2:48 , the Pentagon is accused of changing 2:50 its war casualty calculation 2:52 methodology. This has sparked 2:56 suspicions that the actual casualty 2:57 figures are higher than what has been 2:59 announced to the public. Now, Doctor, 3:04 looking at the conflict in the Middle 3:07 East, how do we interpret reports 3:11 claiming the United States has depleted 3:14 nearly 80%of its defensive missile 3:17 stock? Does this truly indicate a 3:22 weakening of U.S. military power, or is 3:25 it actually part of a strategy to 3:29 request a larger defense budget? Doctor 3:33 . 3:34 Yes. Mas Agus, we see that this has 3:37 gone on much longer than the U.S. 3:39 predicted, as they estimated this issue 3:42 would be resolved in two weeks. And 3:46 this has caused many casualties, 3:48 especially for American soldiers. For 3:52 example, Mas Agus, if one American 3:54 soldier dies, while 10 Iranians die, 3:56 that is something very shocking for 3:58 America. Even though only one person 4:02 died. 4:03 So, indeed, for America, with this 4:04 number of casualties, 4:07 it becomes an internal domestic 4:09 upheaval. So, why did America change 4:11 the way they view or count casualties? 4:14 To prevent or suppress the political 4:16 symptoms occurring within the country, 4:19 Mas Agus. So, regardless of whatever it 4:21 is, that is up to them. But those are 4:23 still human lives, those are still 4:25 numbers, and those are still people who 4:28 have died. So, this has become a blow 4:30 to America. I think for us, it’s not 4:34 that important, Mas Agus, because these 4:37 are indeed efforts made by America to 4:40 prevent public unrest. As we saw during 4:44 the Vietnam War, when America honestly 4:46 released the casualty figures, the 4:47 unrest was extraordinary. So, this is 4:50 done to prevent that. Now, if we look 4:53 at it again, Mas Agus, regarding the 4:56 previous agreement in Switzerland, the 4:58 reason was the intense pressure, the 5:01 economic pressure on the American 5:03 people. But now, it’s a completely 5:06 different chapter, Mas Agus. Indeed, it 5:09 is reported that many, what do you call 5:12 them, missiles, those defensive 5:14 missiles, the Patriot batteries, are 5:16 running out of stock. Because those 5:20 missiles were not prepared for a war 5:23 with Iran. They were prepared to face 5:26 Russia and China, with their missiles 5:28 that are much larger, you see. It’s 5:32 balanced in terms of price, strength, 5:34 everything, even quality-wise, it’s 5:37 somewhat balanced. But this is a war of 5:41 attrition, Mas Agus. So, in this 5:44 asymmetric war, for Iran, it's not 5:46 about how many Americans die or how 5:48 much is destroyed, but how long America 5:51 can endure this long war. 5:54 Yes. 5:54 And Iran knows that in a long war, 5:56 America will lose. This was proven in 5:59 Vietnam, right? But in the short term, 6:01 they will win. Afghanistan was a long 6:03 war, and they lost; in Iraq, it was 6:05 also a long war, and they lost; they 6:06 are better in the short term, like in 6:08 Iran. That's why it's easy to topple 6:10 them. But the maintenance of that also 6:12 causes many casualties for America. So, 6:15 I think, Mas Agus, there is indeed a 6:18 reason for Iran and America to seek 6:20 peace, to move toward negotiations, 6:23 because their weapon stocks are also 6:25 depleting. Regardless of their 6:28 arguments about needing a budget to 6:31 continue the war, that is a secondary 6:33 issue. But if we use simple logic, if 6:36 simple drones launched by Iran are 6:38 intercepted by sophisticated missiles, 6:41 then normatively, the stock will 6:43 definitely decrease, Mas Agus. And that 6:47 is what America fears if a sudden 6:48 attack happens from China or Russia. So 6:52 , they have to consider how to defend 6:54 American territory or the territories 6:56 of their allies. This is also a 6:58 consideration, Mas Agus. That’s why 7:00 there is turmoil in Congress. Congress 7:02 is rejecting that budget. They are 7:05 questioning why the arguments from the 7:08 top brass keep changing all the time. 7:11 The people in Congress are dizzy. They 7:13 say A today, B tomorrow, then A again; 7:15 so what is the point, are we winning or 7:18 losing this war? Exactly, that's why 7:20 things become confusing. 7:22 So, America doesn't dare to admit 7:24 they've lost, but occasionally one can 7:27 slap a superpower, although prolonging 7:29 this war will certainly drain their 7:32 resources; this is a very, very 7:34 dilemmatic position, Mas Brus. So now 7:38 they want to go back to the agreement, 7:40 then fight again, right? Is Trump 7:43 confused about how to conquer Iran? And 7:48 indeed, some analysts say that Iran is 7:51 actually the third, or fourth 7:53 superpower after America, China, Russia 7:56 , and then Iran. So, actually, America 8:01 is doing this because they have no 8:03 other options, Mas Agus; those threats 8:05 and everything about leveling Iran, 8:07 those cries or bluffs from Trump on his 8:10 social media, 8:12 this indicates that America has already 8:16 lost, run out of ideas, energy, or ways 8:19 to conquer Iran. Yeah. 8:21 So, let's just see how things develop, 8:23 Mas. Will these developments continue 8:26 or what? But with the agreement between 8:31 Iran and Oman, Oman agreed that they 8:33 will—so to speak—this is our gulf, 8:36 it's our gulf, both of us agree on that 8:39 , right? 8:41 If they enter through Oman, the " 8:43 enforcer" handles it; if they leave, 8:44 Iran handles it. Yeah. 8:47 So, how far will Oman hold out against 8:50 American pressure? Well, let's see 8:53 later if they will be brave. 8:55 Like that. 8:56 Alright. All this time we have also, uh 8:58 , often heard Iran depicted as a party 9:03 suppressed by sanctions. Uh, 47 years 9:07 of sanctions imposed by Western 9:10 countries on Iran. However, if their 9:13 weaponry is able to drain America's 9:15 stock of defensive missiles, Doc. Is 9:18 Iran actually stronger than what the 9:20 West has perceived all this time? 9:25 Yes, Mas Agus. Indeed, Iran has a goal, 9:28 Mas. So, why did they create the 9:31 Islamic Revolution of Iran, a country 9:33 with a constitutional system that is 9:34 different from other countries? Mas 9:37 Agus, they have a goal. Their goal is 9:39 to capture Jerusalem, which was even 9:41 decided in their parliament that by 9:44 2045, Jerusalem must be captured. Now, 9:47 because they are very, very adamant 9:49 about their goal, and they must oppose 9:52 America, they also have to oppose 9:54 Israel, so their enemies are two: 9:56 America and Israel. That is why for 9:59 almost 50 years they have prepared all 10:02 their natural resources and human 10:04 resources to upgrade themselves, Mas, 10:09 so that in terms of military technology 10:11 , they have a position equal to Israel 10:14 or one notch below America, for example 10:16 . So, all this time, for almost 50 10:18 years, they have been preparing 10:20 everything. For example, they prepared 10:23 how to build military industries 10:25 underground, almost 600 kilometers— 10:27 that's 600 meters, 1 meter below that 10:30 — 10:31 This indicates that they have been very 10:33 well prepared for something, and they 10:35 know that America's war pattern is the 10:37 same: destroy and then seize, which 10:39 they do everywhere, right? Take the war 10:42 in Iraq as an example; they bombarded 10:43 it for days, bombarded until resources 10:45 were weak, military installations were 10:46 destroyed, only then were troops sent 10:48 in. So when the troops entered, it was 10:49 already safe, you know. And Iran knows 10:51 that. In Afghanistan, the same thing 10:53 was done by America. Knowing that, they 10:56 prepared everything that serves as a 10:58 natural shield for them. So, even if 11:02 there is such massive bombing for days, 11:05 they can survive deep underground, 11:07 because... 11:10 Iran's terrain supports a long war, 11:12 right? The mountains are very favorable 11:15 , so even though America was pushed for 11:17 a ground war and Iran also hoped for a 11:19 ground war, it wasn't carried out by 11:21 America because of the mountains. If 11:24 they were forced to, it would be like 11:26 walking into hell, so to speak. So, 11:28 today, Iran holds the trump card. They 11:32 are the ones playing it, because the 11:34 goal of the war was to topple the 11:35 regime, destroy nuclear capabilities, 11:37 then replace the regime, right, Mas Gus 11:39 ? None of that, none of that was 11:40 realized, right. What does that mean? 11:42 It means this war failed, right. If it 11:44 failed, then who won? Those who 11:45 survived are the winners. 11:47 Well, that's why we also see from their 11:49 points of agreement, both in Islamabad 11:51 and in Switzerland, that they all 11:53 illustrate that Iran is in control, 11:55 right. This illustrates that those 11:57 points represent a winner, a winner of 12:00 the war. So, if in a war, there are 12:03 those who win, draw, or lose. Mas Gus, 12:05 if it's a draw, it's give and take. You 12:07 get this, I get that, it's give and 12:08 take. But those 14 points, they all 12:12 essentially corner America. That's why 12:16 I dare to claim that this is an Iranian 12:18 victory. Because even if there are many 12:20 deaths in Iran, and many things 12:22 destroyed in Iran. But destruction and 12:25 death are not strategic measures to say 12:27 whether someone won or lost a war. So, 12:30 as I said, America was also destroyed, 12:33 but more selectively at American bases, 12:35 American equipment, and maybe some 12:37 local citizens who were hit by the 12:39 collateral damage of Iran's attacks. 12:43 But the point is, maybe the battles 12:46 were won by America, but the war was 12:49 won by Iran, if you catch my drift. 12:54 And we are currently seeing Iran 12:56 heading toward becoming a superpower in 12:57 the Middle East region. Is that right, 13:00 Doctor? 13:00 Yes. I, I see it heading there. So, 13:03 this is Iran's constraint because they 13:04 are under a blockade. So they cannot 13:08 improve many things, or build many 13:10 things due to financial limitations. 13:14 But we see that by them just holding on 13:16 , they can suppress unrest, there are 13:18 no beggars there, welfare can increase, 13:20 students can go anywhere, technology 13:22 develops rapidly, and then their 13:24 knowledge, uh, what, their education 13:26 figures are growing rapidly. So 13:30 actually, uh, yeah, maybe a little, the 13:32 little that they, uh, that they feel. 13:35 It's like this, Mas, if they could 13:37 advance in 1 year, if they weren't 13:39 blockaded, they could advance in 5 13:40 years, for example, 5 years to advance. 13:42 They are blockaded, so it's a bit set 13:44 back, say 15 years, but the point is 13:46 the direction is already correct, their 13:47 direction is correct. So what is the 13:49 lesson learned? A social survival 13:51 experience, they live more simply, they 13:54 can save. They are more, more, what is 13:56 it, more careful about everything. So 13:59 it's just, it's just something they 14:00 calculate. So, uh, the goods, what, 14:02 their food ingredients are affordable, 14:04 and they compare it with the era of 14:06 Iran before, which was close to America 14:08 . So when they were close to America, 14:11 what did they feel? Self-esteem dropped 14:13 . Then their economy collapsed. Then 14:16 their freedom was, well, the same as it 14:19 is now. It’s not, it’s not, it’s 14:21 not that different. I, Mas Agus, agree 14:24 more, Mas Agus, that in Arab countries, 14:26 including also Iran, don't, don't use 14:28 democracy, if it's democracy like 14:30 America, it will be destroyed, I want 14:32 to ask. 14:34 Because they weren't designed, their 14:36 genetics weren't for democracy, okay, 14:38 democracy, their own style of democracy 14:40 , what is it? 14:42 Tribal style, their tribal style. So, 14:46 so Iraq is an example, Mas Agus, forced 14:48 into American democracy. We can see now 14:50 how it is, and it was indeed expected 14:52 by America, right? Libya was forced 14:54 into American or Western democracy, and 14:56 that was expected to just end up 14:57 battered, right? So Iran understands 15:00 that, understands that, so Iran doesn't 15:02 want to adopt, uh, Western-style 15:04 democracy, but their own style of 15:06 democracy. So their strength is their 15:10 solidity in leadership. So, their 15:13 Rahbar or supreme leader becomes, uh, 15:15 the source of law, the source of law, 15:17 the source of, what, their benchmark. 15:20 So those chosen people, the chosen 15:22 people are indeed highly selective, and 15:24 that is them. We respect their decision 15:27 . Yeah. 15:28 Like that. 15:28 Yes. Because we see that democracy 15:31 itself, for some countries, ultimately 15:34 destroys, this democracy tool destroys 15:37 from within. Alright, Doctor. 15:40 Interestingly, amidst the strengthening 15:43 sentiment of boycotting products 15:45 affiliated with Israel in Indonesia, 15:47 trade data actually shows the value of 15:49 Indonesia's imports from Israel is 15:51 increasing sharply. Even a program has 15:55 emerged that is said to aim at building 15:58 a future partnership between Israel and 16:01 Indonesia. All of this shows that the 16:04 reality of international relations is 16:06 often far more complicated than the 16:07 narrative developing in the public 16:09 sphere. Now, the question is, Doc, how 16:13 then, uh In Indonesia, calls to boycott 16:18 products affiliated with Israel are 16:20 getting louder, but data shows that 16:22 imports from Israel are actually 16:24 surging. Is the boycott truly 16:28 ineffective, or are the public and the 16:30 government actually walking on two 16:32 different paths? 16:36 Yes, Mas Agus, around 2024 I met with 16:39 Zulhas, right. 16:40 Yes. 16:41 Or maybe late 2023, something like that 16:43 . Actually, it was Mr. Farid that I met 16:45 . 16:46 Uh-huh. 16:46 And at that time, he was the Minister 16:49 of Trade. One of my questions was, "Sir 16:52 , do you agree with boycotting Israel?" 16:55 He agreed to boycott Israel. 16:56 But at that time, I was asking him in 16:58 the context of his role as Trade 17:00 Minister, not just as an Indonesian 17:02 citizen. So today, Mas Agus, those 17:05 boycotts are targeting domestic 17:08 products affiliated with Israel, like F 17:11 &B or whatever. 17:13 Then coffee, what's it called, 17:16 Starbucks, right? So, I was actually 17:19 expecting him to act in his capacity as 17:21 Trade Minister. But I see there is a 17:24 biased way of thinking; the government 17:27 doesn't see it that way. So, there are 17:30 indeed two different paths, as you said 17:32 , between the government and the people 17:35 . Therefore, in my content, I have to 17:38 say that we must speak up about 17:39 Palestine, whether it's substantial or 17:41 not, whether it's heard or not, and 17:43 whether the viewership is high or not, 17:45 we must echo it. Because the 17:48 indications are already clear, it's 17:51 very clear that if we just stay silent, 17:53 it won't be long before an Israeli 17:55 Embassy appears on one of the streets 17:58 in Jakarta. So this is our duty; the 18:02 proof is how massive the information on 18:04 social media is that there are tourists 18:06 , there are Israeli tourists who... 18:09 own businesses 18:10 are doing business 18:11 are doing business in Bandung. 18:12 Yes. 18:14 But the minister says they have German 18:16 passports and we can't expel them and 18:18 so on. This seems like they're playing 18:20 us for fools, right? The government 18:21 could actually find a way if they 18:23 really wanted to; there's always a way, 18:24 and the proof is they can find pretexts 18:26 for anything, yet they can't manage to 18:28 expel Israelis. 18:29 Uh-huh. So, this is what I'm getting at 18:32 ; I think the government isn't really 18:35 thinking about things like that anymore 18:38 , Mas Agus. They aren't thinking 18:42 because we are shouting, and they are 18:43 just afraid of that. That's why the 18:47 government is hesitant to move forward; 18:49 they want to advance, but they get 18:51 booed, so they retreat and stay silent, 18:54 deciding that since they're getting 18:56 shouted at, they'll just stay quiet, 18:58 which indicates that... 19:02 They don't dare to take steps because 19:04 of public outcry, not because of their 19:06 own desire. So, this is what I see, 19:10 that there is ambivalence. The 19:12 government says one thing, ministers 19:14 say another, directors say something 19:16 else, and so on. So, we see that we 19:19 have a trade office in Indonesia, in 19:22 Jerusalem, right? So, how the 19:25 Israel-Asia Center builds and opens 19:27 networks with young Indonesian leaders, 19:30 you know, in the fields of high-tech, 19:32 then agritech, health, and so on. The 19:37 goal is one thing, to build mutual 19:39 understanding, like, the idea that "Wow 19:41 , we in Israel aren't what you think," 19:44 you know. "We aren't like that," you 19:47 know, that's it. 19:49 So, there are major Indonesian 19:50 hospitals collaborating with Israeli 19:52 hospitals, there are universities 19:54 sending people to Israel, that is 19:56 happening massively. 19:57 Yeah. 19:59 It's massive, that's why the diplomatic 20:01 ties are the only thing pending—the 20:02 official "marriage contract"—but 20:04 everything else has already been done, 20:05 everything has been carried out, only 20:07 the formal recognition is missing, and 20:08 that's what's happening. 20:12 We are trying, all the elements that 20:14 are indeed pro-Palestine, we must keep 20:16 shouting, the moment we stay silent, 20:19 it's over, yeah, meaning. 20:21 Never trust the... 20:24 Yeah, meaning if our trade with Israel 20:27 is increasing, Doc, is Indonesia being 20:30 pragmatic for the sake of economic 20:33 interests, or does this show 20:36 Indonesia's inconsistency in its 20:38 support for Palestine? 20:43 Well, both, both are true, so in 2024, 20:46 it reached 500-something billion 20:48 dollars, or in rupiah, you know, so. 20:52 So, there really is an ongoing purchase 20:55 of, what do you call it, surveillance 20:58 tools for the police, then the purchase 21:00 of drones for the TNI, like the Orbiter 21:03 2. 21:05 Then the purchase of Galil weapons, 21:07 many things are being done, by the TNI, 21:09 police, in trade, and others. So this 21:12 is happening, it's happening 21:14 extraordinarily, and thus this 21:16 ambivalence occurs. For example, the 21:19 DPR, I once criticized the DPR when 21:22 there was an IPU, what is it, 21:24 Inter-Parliamentary Union or something, 21:26 yes, at the meeting in Jakarta, there 21:28 were four Israeli parliament members 21:31 who entered, or in Bali, two of them 21:33 came to the event. 21:37 The reason they gave was, "Oh, if it's 21:38 held in Tel Aviv, we can't attend if we 21:40 ban them from entering." Yeah. 21:43 So, actually, it's not even in the 21:45 minds of the DPR, is it? 21:47 Like, for example, Abdul Karim Miqdad 21:49 was not called by Yusril, he wasn't 21:51 summoned by Yusril to Commission I or 21:54 Commission III. Why weren't they 21:57 deported? There's nothing, that's why 22:01 Yusril as Coordinating Minister for Law 22:03 and Immigration should clarify, because 22:06 we're just shouting. Now, actually, 22:10 Yusril is there. Who is Yusril? He's no 22:13 stranger to the movement world, but we 22:15 look at the reality, it means the 22:17 people who are divided, they aren't 22:19 there, there are no eyes, no, you can't 22:21 just reply, "Oh, I'm just a minister," 22:23 but there's a way, there's always a way 22:25 if we have the intention. 22:29 Meaning, Mas, there is a crime 22:31 happening in front of us, someone is 22:33 committing a crime against our brothers 22:34 and we just let them in, right? So, the 22:38 government shouldn't be afraid to, you 22:40 know, to be brave, uh...To oppose 22:44 Israel, so to speak. Fine, it's okay to 22:47 stay in the comfort zone, sending 22:50 doctors, dropping food, and supporting 22:52 international forums on humanitarian 22:54 issues, but how brave can they really 22:57 be? Don't even go as far as Erdogan or 23:01 Anwar Ibrahim; he expelled Israeli 23:02 citizens working in Malaysia, which 23:04 even made noise in America. Is 23:06 Indonesia brave enough to do that? No, 23:08 sir. So, if the leaders speak like that 23:10 , the subordinates will definitely say 23:12 the same thing, just as strongly. But 23:14 here in Indonesia, the people at the 23:15 top say nothing, and the people below 23:17 are also afraid to speak. 23:18 Afraid of this, afraid of that. Unless 23:20 there are people who actually... 23:22 Uh, who have a fundamental commitment 23:25 from the start, you know, to carry out 23:27 the constitution, that colonialism on 23:29 earth must be abolished. Yes. 23:33 So, actually, if the ministers, the 23:36 ministries, just hold onto the 23:38 constitution, they have actually 23:40 carried out, what do you call it, the 23:43 mandate of the constitution. It should 23:46 be easy. Don't be too political with 23:49 everything; perhaps they are worried 23:52 that ending colonialism isn't just 23:54 about empty words, but realizing it 23:57 requires, uh, a collective commitment. 24:00 This is what we need to build, what we 24:02 need to remind everyone of, Mas Agus, 24:03 all our stakeholders. So we saw how the 24:06 protest went yesterday; there were no 24:07 government representatives, they didn't 24:09 dare to come. Now everyone is afraid, 24:11 Mas Agus, no one dares to speak, 24:13 everyone is scared, so... 24:15 So we regret, we really regret the case 24:17 of the Palestinian, until today we 24:19 don't know if he was deported or not. 24:22 Yusril asked for him not to be deported 24:24 ; is it really that easy? 24:26 Yes. 24:27 So, I don't know, I just keep thinking, 24:29 Mas Agus, why are Palestinians easily 24:31 deported, but they don't dare to deport 24:32 an Israeli? Yes. I understand. 24:37 Very well. Sometimes, the seat of power 24:39 does make people forget their 24:41 commitment to the struggle, Doc. Doctor 24:44 , let's move on to the information that 24:47 has been trending on social media 24:49 lately, Doc. With the term "getting to 24:51 heaven via the Indonesian citizen route 24:52 ." At first glance, it does sound funny 24:54 , Doc. But many see this expression as 24:57 a satirical phrase born from the 24:59 public's exhaustion with economic 25:02 pressures, cost of living, job 25:04 opportunities, and various issues 25:06 regarding public services. There is UIN 25:11 Jakarta reminding us that the verses... 25:13 Hel... 25:14 Hello, Doctor. Hello, Doctor. Hello. 25:21 Yes. I got cut off. 25:24 It cut out. Alright, Doctor. I would 25:27 like to move on to the next topic, 25:30 Doctor. This has been trending on 25:33 social media lately, Doc. With the term 25:36 "getting to heaven via the Indonesian 25:37 citizen route." It sounds funny at 25:41 first glance, but many view this 25:43 expression as a satirical remark born 25:46 from public exhaustion in facing 25:48 economic pressure, cost of living, job 25:51 scarcity, and various public service 25:53 issues. There are UIN Jakarta academics 25:57 who warn that verses about patience 25:59 should not be used as an excuse to 26:01 normalize the people's suffering. Ms. 26:05 Fari. Hello. 26:07 Yes. Yes. Yes. 26:09 Yes. Now, Doctor, does 26:14 this phrase, "getting to heaven via the 26:16 Indonesian citizen route," show that 26:18 society is becoming smarter in 26:19 expressing criticism, or does it 26:21 actually signal that people are 26:23 starting to lose hope for change? 26:27 Yes, Mas Agus. It is indeed felt, Mas, 26:30 that life is getting harder and harder 26:32 as time goes by. So, this is a form of 26:35 disappointment; this satire is actually 26:38 a form of disappointment from our 26:40 society toward our leaders today, right 26:42 ? 26:43 Yes. 26:44 We see how, for example, there are many 26:47 layoffs, then prices go up, and then 26:49 our economic programs—we don't know 26:51 where they are headed. Then there are 26:55 many things, Mas Agus, that make the 26:57 public frustrated. So, those words are, 27:00 in my opinion, words of disappointment 27:01 and frustration with the government, 27:03 actually. Because our problem is that I 27:07 feel we are still polite and courteous 27:11 in conveying criticism to the 27:13 government. So I think the government 27:18 must be able to accommodate these 27:22 criticisms or satire as a form of 27:25 maximizing the government's duties. 27:30 Actually, Mas Agus, with our debt 27:32 piling up to 8,000 trillion now, our 27:33 debt is the highest it has ever been, 27:35 right? Then, with other burdens, 27:39 actually, if the government—I mean, 27:42 Mr. Prabowo—is firm, he could do it 27:44 because he has all the instruments. 27:48 Because, Mas, just imagine the number 27:51 of ministers and deputy ministers; how 27:53 much cost is that spending? Not just 27:56 salaries, but house rentals, new houses 27:59 , cars, then their staff—how much is 28:02 that? Then, for example, commissioners 28:06 —there are independent ones or 28:08 whoever they put in there—oh, there 28:10 are actually many ways for the 28:12 government to save money, like the free 28:14 nutritious meal program which is a 28:16 waste, Mas Agus. So, it is actually 28:20 possible if the government wants to, 28:22 for example, look at New York or 28:23 Mamdani, right? How, for instance, they 28:26 don't do everything at once. 28:28 They create a program, quote-unquote, 28:31 New York-style. So they can calculate 28:34 five places where it's needed and so on 28:35 ; that is something I can do. That is 28:38 because the President is being too 28:40 ambitious. That is it. Imagine, Mas, 28:44 like Dadan, and previously Ms. Nani, 28:47 they were nobody, just like us, and 28:49 suddenly they have to manage hundreds 28:52 of trillions of rupiah. 28:55 Wouldn't you be confused? 28:57 It makes you dizzy, trying to figure 28:58 out where stunting is highest and where 29:00 to direct the budget for stunting. Oh, 29:02 my NTT region, or Papua, that's where 29:04 it should be focused, at what age, it 29:06 should be focused there. So the budget 29:08 is more, uh, more appropriate, it's not 29:11 just wasted all over Indonesia, like in 29:14 Menteng where people are rich, or in 29:16 Bekasi where they don't need it. So, so 29:20 this is what causes us to create our 29:22 own problems, actually creating our own 29:24 problems. Actually it’s okay, good 29:27 idea, an idea, but once again, 29:29 everything must have a feasibility 29:30 study. Where is the right place, what 29:33 should be done, everything must be 29:35 thought out thoroughly. That is what we 29:39 must learn from Imam Dani; even when 29:41 protested by capitalists, rich people, 29:43 and institutions, he must have already 29:45 done his studies. 29:49 His intention is good, how can these 29:52 people buy, uh, food or basic 29:54 necessities that are affordable, so 29:57 they don't suffer or die from 29:59 starvation. So, so there is a good 30:03 intention, there is a noble intention 30:05 there. Just like Mr. Prabowo, his 30:06 intentions are also good. I don't mind 30:09 if his intentions are good. But if the 30:12 implementation is wrong, even good 30:14 things don't look good. So, Mr. Prabowo 30:17 doesn't understand that while his ideas 30:19 and goals are good, his implementation 30:21 is a mess. Now, it's that 30:23 implementation that people are 30:25 highlighting, not his good intentions. 30:28 Like this example, Mas Agus, there is a 30:31 fly on your forehead, I come and slap 30:33 the fly, the fly dies, but then your 30:36 forehead gets a bump; that's not 30:38 proportional, you know. So, the 30:41 intention to shoo away the fly is good, 30:43 but the method creates a problem. So, 30:46 this is a lesson, Mas Agus, that satire 30:49 , criticism, and so on, indicate that 30:51 the public is hopeless, almost at a 30:54 level of desperation, not knowing what 30:57 else to do, Mas Agus. So I am the same, 31:00 like on Threads, I sometimes see, for 31:03 example, take the case in Bima where 31:06 the mayor appoints his in-laws, his 31:09 wife, and so on as officials. So, what 31:13 did I reply to those people? Wow, this 31:16 is so great, an extraordinary uncle, a 31:19 head of the family that needs to be 31:21 emulated, right? And then 31:25 actually, at that level, even if we 31:27 curse them, it's the same thing, or for 31:30 example, if someone takes a private jet 31:32 , "Wow, that's a nice plane," the 31:34 people are already at that level, Mas 31:37 Agus. So, this is input for the 31:40 government, don't ever lose hope. Don't 31:44 ever get angry at the people because 31:46 this is the people's way to, uh, to 31:49 entertain themselves. 31:52 Instead of listening to leaders ' 31:54 speeches and then getting high blood 31:56 pressure, right, that's how it is, but 31:59 sometimes these satirical remarks are 32:01 eventually taken by those in power as 32:03 mere entertainment. Yet, remarks like 32:06 these should serve as a reminder for 32:09 those in power to improve. And these 32:13 words expressed by the public are 32:15 because the people are used to it, 32:17 Doctor, laughing at their own suffering 32:20 without any real change. Is that right, 32:24 Doctor? 32:25 Yes. I know, I am certain that the 32:28 government knows, the government is 32:30 just mocking back, so it means both 32:32 sides are just mocking each other, 32:33 right? Actually, it shouldn't really be 32:36 like that, actually. The government 32:38 must, must understand, right? That is 32:40 the people's way of reminding and 32:42 criticizing, right? If they curse, they 32:44 are blamed, if they do that, they are 32:45 blamed. "You can't talk like that, you 32:47 must be polite," they say, so people 32:49 use satire. Using satire, well, just 32:50 take it in stride. 32:52 So when the people are still being 32:54 satirical, still criticizing, it means 32:56 they still care, just like in a 32:57 household, right? If they are still 32:59 bickering, it means they still love 33:01 each other. It’s when they stop 33:03 caring that it becomes a problem. When 33:05 there's no more bickering, it means 33:06 they don't care anymore. Now, what we 33:09 need to build is this trust. How the 33:12 public trusts the government, and the 33:14 government also trusts the people. Take 33:16 the tax issue, for example, the taxes 33:18 are an obstacle when all sorts of 33:19 methods are used. The first is that the 33:22 public is pressured to pay taxes. 33:24 Paying taxes while life is hard, right? 33:27 Then the tax officials themselves 33:29 sometimes, uh, appear, what is it, 33:32 flexing, right? Then it's unclear where 33:34 the tax money goes. Especially now with 33:36 calls not to pay taxes if things are 33:38 like this and so on. So the public, who 33:40 were initially reluctant to pay taxes, 33:43 with words like that, are even more 33:45 eager not to pay. So, actually, if we 33:48 look at it, Mr. Agus, if the government 33:51 really thinks about the people, there 33:54 are many sources they could use; our 33:57 income is 80%from taxes, so the portion 34:00 of non-tax income is too small. 34:03 Yes. 34:04 So there are many things, for example, 34:07 Mr. Agus, take mining, how much should 34:09 the government actually get for the 34:12 people? So, actually, if we look at the 34:14 constitution, all natural resources, 34:16 the earth, and everything are for the 34:17 people. The state manages them, that's 34:19 the norm. It can be changed, it doesn't 34:21 have to be the government, the private 34:24 sector can do it too, but we take, uh, 34:26 what? Taxes or dividends or something 34:27 like that. But here lies the problem. 34:30 Mr. Agus, if we compare Indonesia with 34:33 Saudi Arabia, we are like them, but 34:35 they only have oil. What don't we have? 34:38 We have everything, even in the sea, 34:39 everything is there. But in terms of 34:41 management, we aren't proportional, 34:43 it's not well-handled, and that's not 34:46 even mentioning the biggest issue, 34:48 corruption. So all of this is lost and 34:51 burdened onto the people, BPJS goes up, 34:53 everything goes up. Everything 34:55 eventually leads back to taxes, Mr. 34:58 Agus. When building a, well, a country, 35:01 the government wants to create a budget 35:02 , if the money isn't enough, they turn 35:04 to taxes. 35:06 Yes. 35:08 The public gets pressured, the common 35:10 people, so this is what we see, how 35:12 satire, for example, people walking 35:14 will be taxed, cell phones will be 35:17 taxed, right? 35:19 It’s not, this isn't, we’re not 35:20 being unserious saying that, Mas Agus, 35:22 because we don't know where else the 35:23 funds can be sourced, right? 35:24 Yes. 35:26 So, it's always the weakest who become 35:28 the target, the public, so that’s 35:31 their way of, well, entertaining 35:33 themselves, especially since 35:35 Indonesians love, well, making jokes. 35:39 Now, for examples, Mas Agus, how, for 35:42 instance, do 2%of Indonesians control a 35:45 large portion of Indonesia? 35:48 How, for example, Bowo has returned, 35:51 the prosecutor's office has returned 35:54 about 1 trillion. 35:56 Heh. 35:56 But whose money was returned? How come 35:59 there are no suspects, nothing? So all 36:02 of this, well, raises questions about 36:04 the government. Is the government 36:07 actually serious about handling 36:08 corruption, for example? Okay, serious. 36:11 Now, this person is not hit, this one 36:12 is. So the sharpness of the knife 36:14 depends on who it is. Oh, this one is 36:16 critical, he gets hit. Oh, this one, eh 36:17 , not really? No. So, so everything 36:20 still, what should I say, needs what? 36:23 It needs a strong commitment from the 36:25 government to restore trust. If the 36:28 trust is there, Mas Agus, the people 36:29 will pay taxes without even being asked 36:31 . Oh, taxes are important. For example, 36:35 taxes are important, you know, taxes. 36:38 Now, the question is: the road to my 36:39 house is bad. Everyone spends so much, 36:42 why, what do I get out of it, right? In 36:45 America, you pay a lot but you get 36:47 everything, or in European countries, 36:48 in, uh, home, what, Nordic countries 36:50 for example, they pay a lot but they 36:52 get everything; school is all free. Oh, 36:55 clearly, you have to pay taxes, work, 36:57 wow, get welfare money, money from 36:58 these taxes. 37:01 We pay a certain amount of taxes, but 37:05 How, that is what must be, must be 37:07 given by the government, trust to the 37:10 public, and if trust is already there, 37:12 I am sure our people will do the best 37:15 for their country. 37:17 Alright, Doctor, we are limited by time 37:19 , I have already received a signal from 37:21 Bung Fahri. Doctor, in closing, perhaps 37:24 you have a brief conclusion you could 37:27 share. 37:29 Yes. To all the listeners of Rasil 37:33 radio, let us never tire of giving our 37:35 best for this beloved country. Because, 37:39 well, our ancestors have sacrificed, 37:41 and they certainly want and hope for a 37:43 better Indonesia so that their children 37:45 and grandchildren can experience that 37:48 goodness. I think that’s it, Mas Agus 37:50 . 37:50 Very well, Doctor. Thank you very much 37:52 for our dialogue today. 
