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0:02 Brail TV. Brothers and sisters, may 0:10 Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala bless you. 0:12 Now we enter our morning news dialogue 0:14 topic. As usual, every Monday we will 0:21 listen to insights and information 0:23 provided by our senior journalist, Bang 0:26 Nuim Hayat, directly from Australia. 0:32 Peace be upon you, Bang Nuim. 0:36 And peace be upon you too. How are you? 0:40 Freedom. Greetings of freedom, Bang 0:42 Nuim. Freedom. 0:43 Yes, yes, yes. 0:46 Indonesia has been independent for 81 0:48 years, Bang. Now, at this moment of the 0:53 Republic of Indonesia's independence, 0:54 there are several issues worth 0:56 reflecting on. We saw a few days ago, 1:02 Bang, that a clash occurred in Aceh. 1:07 This reminds us of the importance of 1:09 maintaining the Helsinki peace 1:10 agreement. This was stated by former 1:14 Vice President Yusuf Kalla. Meanwhile, 1:19 on the other hand, Bang, the 1:20 Independence Day celebration is 1:22 apparently not fully felt by business 1:24 owners. Many flag sellers 'revenues are 1:29 reported to have plummeted. Meanwhile, 1:33 the middle class is finding it 1:34 increasingly difficult to cope with the 1:36 economic burden, compounded by the 1:38 strengthening dollar against the rupiah 1:40 . Meanwhile, from abroad, we also have 1:46 information that Iran's supreme leader, 1:48 Mojtaba Khamenei, also extended his 1:50 congratulations on the 81st anniversary 1:52 of the Republic of Indonesia. On the 1:58 other hand, we also see that Saudi 1:59 Arabia is forming a new defense 2:01 alliance like NATO with several other 2:03 countries. So, how do we interpret 2:09 these various events, Bang Nuim, in 2:11 Indonesia's 81st year, regarding peace, 2:14 the people's economy, and Indonesia's 2:16 position amidst global geopolitical 2:18 changes? Please, Bang Nuim. Perhaps we 2:26 can start with how the Helsinki peace 2:27 agreement can be maintained. Please, 2:30 Bang. In the name of Allah, the Most 2:32 Gracious, the Most Merciful. Peace be 2:34 upon you. 2:35 And peace be upon you. 2:37 It is indeed very interesting; we have 2:39 been independent for 81 years, and we 2:41 hope that by the year 2045......a 2:47 Golden Indonesia will be achieved. 2:50 However, this remains a goal or a dream 2:52 . Because in reality, lately, it could 2:56 be said that we should have been 2:57 further ahead. Why? We always declare, 3:02 to convince our nation and our people, 3:04 that we are a very rich country. Rich 3:09 in everything. We have rich natural 3:11 resources, wealth, and so on. And our 3:14 people actually have extraordinary 3:16 capabilities as well. But why, as 3:21 mentioned earlier in the Rasil report, 3:23 are so many people falling out of the 3:25 middle class? This is the most 3:31 important group that should keep 3:32 growing, as they represent the true 3:34 strength of the middle class. But why 3:38 are these things happening, making us 3:40 feel quite perplexed? And then, 3:49 speaking of Helsinki, I can say that 3:50 about 2 months ago here in Melbourne, 3:52 the Indonesian community, especially 3:54 the Muslims who are part of the Baitul 3:56 Makmur group (located west of Melbourne 3:58 in Laverton), invited, among others, 4:00 former Vice President Yusuf Kalla to 4:02 attend. 4:10 the groundbreaking ceremony because the 4:12 Muslim community in Laverton had 4:14 successfully purchased another facility 4:16 to be used as a mosque. Previously, an 4:20 ordinary house was used as a mosque, 4:22 supplemented by the house next door. 4:24 Then they made a purchase. 4:25 Now, this is quite extraordinary, 4:27 a police station or a former police 4:29 station that was very large 4:32 was bought and its groundbreaking was 4:33 signed. That was roughly done by, among 4:36 others, Yusuf Kalla. So when I was 4:39 suddenly asked to give a short speech. 4:42 Yes. 4:43 to explain the development of Islam in 4:45 Australia. 4:48 I said thank you because in our midst 4:50 today we have a peacemaker. Many were 4:53 surprised. They expected me to say 4:56 former vice president, but I called him 4:58 a peacemaker. Because 5:01 the problem in Aceh is not a new issue. 5:03 It has been around for a long time. 5:06 Since the days of the Portuguese, the 5:08 Dutch, all of them had some difficulty. 5:13 When dealing with Aceh, we know how a 5:15 heroine, yes, not a hero, if a heroine 5:18 it becomes a Muslim woman named 5:19 Keumalahayati, the daughter of a 5:21 fighter and a graduate of a pesantren 5:23 in Aceh. How a woman named Kumala 5:31 Hayati in Aceh, in a duel with a Dutch 5:33 officer named Nicholas Hoffman, was 5:35 able to stab him with a sword. 5:40 Yes. Nicholas Hoffman. So Aceh can 5:44 never be underestimated. Now, this 5:49 happens because perhaps when the 5:50 natural disaster in Aceh occurred, the 5:52 government at that time seemed to say 5:54 it refused foreign aid. We know that 5:58 when the massive tsunami happened in 6:01 2004 in Aceh, on what date? December 6:04 26th. the aid that came from abroad was 6:07 extraordinary because of the 6:09 devastation, with hundreds of thousands 6:11 of people killed and so on. Why was the 6:15 aid so fast at that time? Because Yusuf 6:20 Kalla, who reportedly at that time made 6:22 President SBY a bit offended because he 6:24 , as vice president, took the lead. So 6:28 he didn't talk much but immediately 6:30 went there to see what happened and so 6:32 on and so forth. Now, after a very 6:36 terrible event occurred, not only in 6:38 Aceh at that time, but also in North 6:39 Sumatra, the floods of logs washed away 6:42 , and people said, "Oh, this is because 6:44 the logs were carried by the flood." 6:47 No. Those logs had already been cut 6:49 down. So don't be deceived. The people 6:52 should not be deceived. Now, currently 6:56 in Aceh, perhaps they just want to say, 6:58 "Please, we are already willing to make 7:00 peace." This peace was mediated by the 7:04 former President of Finland if I am not 7:06 mistaken. So this is something very 7:10 extraordinary, and the people in Aceh 7:12 can also be said to be grateful for 7:14 this. But then, interference occurred. 7:18 Let us recall that the Minister of Home 7:20 Affairs once intended to hand over 7:22 several islands that actually belonged 7:24 to Aceh Province to North Sumatra, to 7:26 North Sumatra, whose governor is Joko 7:28 Widodo's son-in-law. So it seems as if 7:33 We ourselves are causing disturbances 7:35 to unsettle the people of Aceh. They 7:39 have long been, they...I once spoke 7:41 with a Governor of Aceh, yes, who had, 7:43 he was a graduate of a university in 7:45 the Philippines, in Manila. He said, " 7:50 We have extraordinary natural resources 7:53 here, but we lack capable manpower." So 7:58 we sent people to study, but by the 7:59 time they returned, the technology had 8:01 advanced so much that they needed 8:03 further schooling. This means they must 8:07 constantly play catch-up. We cannot 8:12 forget the fact that the first airplane 8:14 given to the late President Soekarno at 8:16 that time was a plane from Aceh. Now, 8:24 we see that there are photos showing 8:26 how neglected the efforts were to 8:27 rehabilitate the people of Aceh who 8:29 suffered in the disaster at that time. 8:37 A disaster that later seemed to become 8:39 a kind of, shall we say, controversy, 8:41 because it was said the wood only 8:43 drifted due to the flood, not that it 8:45 was wood that had already been cut. But 8:50 now, the issue of forest management in 8:52 Aceh still seems to be continuously 8:54 neglected. And they have contributed 8:58 much to Indonesia, just as other 8:59 regions have contributed to the center. 9:04 The central government should be 9:05 returning those contributions, or at 9:07 least those budgets to regions 9:09 experiencing difficulties, like Aceh, 9:11 which, one could say, is experiencing 9:13 hardship. So we look at whether this 9:19 lowering of the Red and White flag, 9:21 replaced by the flag of what was then 9:23 the Free Aceh Movement (GAM) and so on. 9:29 Is this a form of protest? Because 9:34 regarding this flag issue, I know, I 9:36 once heard a scholar known in Indonesia 9:38 as Hasan Bandung. Even though he was 9:42 from Singapore. He said to be careful 9:47 when we honor that flag. Be careful not 9:51 to let it deviate into honoring 9:52 something other than the Tawhid of 9:54 Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala. That is what 9:58 he said, what he was worried about, and 10:00 so on. So all of this certainly 10:02 disturbs our feelings. Why could this 10:05 happen? Shouldn't we now 10:09 truly be working hand in hand and so on 10:11 . But back then, when they had problems 10:16 , they did not immediately receive aid, 10:18 for instance from abroad, because the 10:19 President refused. Whereas we know, 10:24 Brother Agus, 10:27 when that devastating tsunami occurred, 10:29 Western countries and foreign nations 10:31 provided aid, and the largest aid, 10:36 The largest, incredibly, came from 10:38 Australia; 1 billion dollars was given 10:40 to Aceh at that time. But with the 10:45 request that the use of, yes, that 10:47 money, the utilization of those funds, 10:50 if possible, be supervised by, yes, an 10:52 Australian representative. And this 10:56 reportedly made the government at the 10:58 time quite disappointed because they 11:00 were considered, um, fearful, dishonest 11:02 , deceitful, and so on. Yes, Australian 11:05 reporters just asked if it were 11:06 possible for us to give 1 billion 11:08 dollars. Uh-huh. 11:10 And at the time, many of my listeners 11:12 —I was still at Radio Australia then 11:14 —many listeners seemed to ask, what 11:16 does Australia want, why are they 11:17 giving such a large amount of aid? Well 11:21 , I said this is because, in Indonesia, 11:23 people think that if someone gives 11:25 something, there must be an ulterior 11:27 motive. If they give 1 Rupiah, they 11:30 expect 5 Rupiah in return. So when 11:33 people do something good, it's as if 11:35 there's a hidden agenda behind it. This 11:37 is what we must avoid. I said if 11:40 Indonesia is safe and peaceful, 11:42 Australia sleeps soundly. Aha. So they 11:44 do have an agenda, right? No. But 11:46 Australia dared to provide aid of up to 11:48 1 billion dollars. How the disbursement 11:51 , implementation, or utilization 11:53 happened, I don't know. Only God knows. 11:55 I personally don't know. So now, it 11:57 would be better if things like this 11:59 didn't have to happen. 12:01 I 12:01 and the central government, perhaps, 12:06 must do something to reassure everyone 12:07 so there are no suspicions. This is the 12:12 most dangerous thing, this suspicion, 12:14 which is not necessarily true but is 12:15 believed by those who are suspicious. 12:18 This is what becomes our problem. 12:20 Bang Doim. So, how do we then view this 12:24 event in the context of the Helsinki 12:26 peace process that has been going on 12:28 for more than two decades? Is this just 12:31 a local issue or is there a more 12:33 fundamental problem that needs to be 12:35 resolved immediately? 12:38 Yes, this is not just a local issue— 12:40 not local to Aceh, but the relationship 12:42 between Aceh and the central government 12:44 , which I said at the time was a 12:46 massive event. Then the government 12:49 firmly said they didn't want foreign 12:51 aid, even though aid was needed. So in 12:56 such a situation, it shouldn't be a 12:58 problem whoever gives aid; if they give 13:00 aid with sincere hearts just for 13:02 humanitarian considerations, we don't 13:04 need to reject it, and it shouldn't 13:05 embarrass us. Because in such a state, 13:10 we were truly in difficulty. So, 13:18 hopefully for the people of Aceh, who 13:20 are in Aceh at the tip from Sabang to 13:22 Merauke, let's say near Aceh there to 13:24 Merauke, they can perhaps be invited to 13:26 reflect on the wisdom of a peace 13:28 mediated by a former president of 13:30 Finland. This is actually something 13:38 truly extraordinary. We want to say, we 13:41 couldn't resolve it alone, it's okay, 13:43 what can we do. Among other humans, 13:48 some have intentions...we know there 13:50 were no ulterior motives by Finland in 13:52 helping to reconcile the situation in 13:54 Aceh. And hopefully, this can be 13:58 lasting, this can be sustainable. Don't 14:01 let them feel as though they have truly 14:03 been sidelined. Because in this Febri 14:06 Adriansyah case, the Deputy Attorney 14:08 General's office also has all kinds of 14:10 problems arising. Is it connected to 14:13 Aceh? 14:16 with um allegations that perhaps cannot 14:18 be justified, and lack a strong 14:19 foundation. But such allegations, you 14:26 see, such remarks can then be 14:27 exaggerated in what is known in English 14:30 as "Chinese whispers." Getting bigger, 14:35 bigger, and bigger. Eventually, it no 14:38 longer reflects the real issue, but a 14:40 fabricated one, and this is dangerous 14:42 because people can quickly believe it. 14:47 Yeah. Alright. And um, how can the 14:52 government's credibility be restored in 14:54 Aceh, Bang Noim? 14:59 Well, the government is compelled to 15:00 demonstrate its good intentions. Do not 15:03 immediately accuse them of being 15:05 traitors or tell them 15:07 yes 15:08 to just run away from their own country 15:10 , from their homeland. This is painful, 15:13 right? People often want to, for 15:19 example, improve things through what is 15:21 called um criticism. Now, if criticism 15:26 is not allowed, people cannot complain; 15:29 if we are in pain, for instance, we cry 15:31 out, right? 15:34 In crying out, we can slightly 15:35 alleviate our suffering. So, just 15:41 because someone complains because their 15:43 situation, according to their 15:44 interpretation—and it is indeed 15:46 interpreted by many as being cornered 15:48 —do not then label them as an agent 15:49 of this or an agent of that. I 15:57 sometimes talk to people and say this, 15:59 it's not about anything else, but in 16:01 the Quran, Surah Al-Baqarah verse 30, 16:03 it is said that Allah Subhanahu wa 16:05 ta'ala says He will create a caliph on 16:07 the face of the earth. Then the angels 16:19 challenged it. Just imagine, try to 16:22 imagine, the angels challenged Allah 16:24 Subhanahu wa ta'ala. 16:26 Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala conveyed the 16:28 intention to create a caliph on the 16:30 face of the earth. The angels said, " 16:33 Will You create a creature that will 16:35 cause chaos and such, even though we... 16:37 " and Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala did not 16:39 say, "Hey, are you a devil's advocate?" 16:43 No. Allah said, "Indeed, I know what 16:45 you do not know.""Indeed, I know what 16:50 you do not know," politely conveyed to 16:52 the angels who challenged—yes, 16:54 directly challenged Allah Subhanahu wa 16:56 ta'ala—but they were not called 16:58 agents of Satan or agents of the devil, 17:00 no. 17:02 But it was said, "I know what you do 17:04 not know," that is gentle, yes, a 17:06 blessing for all mankind. Now, perhaps 17:09 this is the attitude that needs to be 17:11 adopted by the current government. If 17:15 someone criticizes with the genuine 17:16 intention for the good of the nation, 17:18 don't react that way. Even if it might 17:24 not align with the direction of the 17:25 government's plans, just accept it. 17:29 That is not treason, nor is it anything 17:31 of the sort. It's like in the Bible, 17:35 there is the phrase "spare the rod, 17:37 spoil the child." So, if a parent 17:42 refuses to use discipline to correct 17:44 their child who is acting up—just 17:46 normal childhood mischief and so on— 17:48 that child could become spoiled and 17:50 forget. If they are wrong, just tell 17:54 them, "You are wrong," that is the 17:56 right thing to do. So, we are told in 17:58 Islam that al-haqqu haqqu, al-batilu 18:00 batil; what is wrong remains false. 18:03 False remains false, and what is true 18:05 remains true. We must have the courage 18:07 and willingness to accept it with an 18:08 open heart. 18:09 Yes. Alright, brother. 81 years of 18:11 Indonesian independence, but 18:13 Indonesia's economy seems to not be 18:15 doing so well. As I mentioned earlier, 18:18 at the beginning of our talk, amidst 18:20 the euphoria of the independence 18:22 celebration, we actually see various 18:24 economic pressures on the public, from 18:26 the declining turnover of flag sellers, 18:28 weakened purchasing power, and also the 18:30 middle class, who must work harder to 18:32 bear the burden of life. Does this 18:36 condition signify that behind the 18:38 festivities of the 81st Indonesian 18:39 Independence Day, there are economic 18:42 problems in society that we cannot 18:43 ignore? And how, then, does Brother 18:46 Nuim see Indonesia's current economic 18:48 condition? There are now many things 18:56 being quoted by friends in Indonesia, 18:59 yes, they are talking about a group 19:00 currently, the Senior Journalists Union 19:03 , who are quoting a report from a Dutch 19:05 newspaper saying Indonesia will go 19:07 bankrupt. Yes, the Dutch are also 19:13 partly responsible. 19:14 350 years 19:16 they colonized us. They did not give an 19:18 opportunity to 19:21 the indigenous people to study so they 19:22 could become knowledgeable people. And 19:25 therefore, after Indonesia became 19:27 independent, we did not have a capital 19:29 of knowledgeable people. No. My late 19:32 father always said, you are lucky we 19:34 are independent. If not, you would not 19:37 be able to go to school, let alone to 19:39 university and so on. So this is not 19:41 about shifting the blame to the Dutch, 19:43 but that is indeed the reality. Now the 19:45 Dutch are saying Indonesia is 19:47 threatened with bankruptcy. Because of 19:49 what? Imagine the corruption that is 19:52 happening, the misuse, and so on. And 19:56 perhaps also policies that might be 19:58 inappropriate, that might be rushed. 20:03 The British like to say, "Haste makes 20:05 waste." Meaning that being in a hurry 20:09 can lead to sloppiness and wastefulness 20:11 . So, perhaps it must be thought 20:14 through carefully. Back then, we had a 20:18 5-year development plan that was 20:19 structured, and other people were then 20:21 considered as 20:23 eh 20:25 well, enemies because they were from 20:27 Berkeley in the United States; that 20:29 shouldn't be an issue because, as the 20:30 hadith says, "Seek knowledge even if it 20:35 is in China." It's fine; why would 20:37 seeking knowledge everywhere be an 20:38 issue when there was a time 20:40 yes 20:42 where non-Muslims sought knowledge at 20:44 the first university in the world, 20:46 founded by two Muslim women in Fez, 20:48 Morocco, in North Africa, called 20:50 Al-Qarawiyyin. Al-Qarawiyyin is the 20:54 first university in the world. Many 20:56 people were there. Among those who 20:59 studied there, according to historical 21:01 records, was someone who later became a 21:03 pope, yes, a pope in the Catholic 21:05 religion and so on. It was also not an 21:11 issue for a person referred to as a 21:13 Jewish scholar, namely Maimonides. He 21:18 also went to school there and it was 21:20 never an issue where he went, it's just 21:22 that nowadays people always say, oh, 21:24 those are people from the West and so 21:26 on and so forth. Perhaps they have done 21:29 something right. Why is that? Because 21:33 when I was still in Indonesia during 21:34 the Old Order era, our inflation 21:36 reached hundreds of percent. 21:39 H 21:40 Truly. So, even just being able to ride 21:42 a bicycle, we were grateful, 21:44 alhamdulillah, we could ride a bike and 21:46 so on. So, the situation was indeed 21:48 difficult. Then there was indeed 21:50 gradual improvement, but even that was 21:52 not liked by some people. 21:55 Yeah. Right. Now, as our final dialogue 22:00 today on this moment of the Republic of 22:02 Indonesia's anniversary, as an 22:04 Indonesian citizen living abroad, Bang. 22:08 How do you, Bang Nuim, view this 81st 22:10 momentum of the Republic of Indonesia's 22:13 anniversary? Because usually from afar, 22:16 one can see Indonesia from a different 22:18 perspective. What makes you, Bang Nuim, 22:22 the most proud? And at the same time, 22:24 what remains a concern for you, Bang 22:26 Nuim, regarding Indonesia's current 22:28 condition? Well, if our smart people 22:34 who come from abroad, let's say they 22:37 sacrifice their comfortable lives 22:38 overseas, 22:44 returning to Indonesia with the 22:46 intention to help and perhaps achieve 22:48 something, they are suddenly, as they 22:50 say, criminalized. This will not help. 22:59 So if there is an intention now, for 23:01 example, to allow dual citizenship so 23:03 that certain people who have skills not 23:05 yet possessed in Indonesia want to 23:07 return to help, we must give them the 23:08 opportunity. Don't let them be 23:14 criminalized like what has happened 23:16 several times. This is important to 23:20 look at, because people saw the late 23:22 Soekarno often say that in Indonesia, 23:24 if you throw a stick, it will grow. 23:27 Yeah. 23:28 It can grow, it's so fertile. But why, 23:31 why can this happen? 23:36 It is true that when we gained 23:38 independence, it was a courage to take 23:40 control during that time because many 23:41 said wait a minute, wait a minute. But 23:47 then the youth, like Adam Malik and 23:49 others, they urged that independence be 23:51 proclaimed immediately. And this is 23:56 what I heard, supposedly to Cindy Adams 23:59 , that Bung Karno said when asked why 24:01 August 17, 1945. So Bung Karno 24:09 allegedly explained to Cindy Adams, who 24:11 wrote Bung Karno's biography, that 17 24:13 is the number of rakaats that Muslims 24:15 must perform in their daily prayers at 24:17 a minimum 24:20 17 rakaats. Then why the month of 24:23 August? Oh, it coincided with the month 24:26 of Ramadan at that time. 24:28 Ah, so August 17th is also Syahru 24:30 Ramadan alladhi unzila fihi al-Qur'an. 24:33 That is when the Qur'an was revealed. 24:35 The month of Ramadan. Then why the year 24:38 1945, not 46, 47, or 48? Well, because 24:42 1945 is 1 + 9 = 10, + 4 = 14, + 5 = 19. 24:49 Now, it is also said there are special 24:51 meanings in the Qur'an regarding this 24:53 number 19. So, all of this with such 24:58 noble intentions, such good intentions, 25:00 with no thoughts at all of, 25:02 quote-unquote, betraying anyone. Then, 25:06 because we know a proclaimer whose name 25:08 is often left unmentioned, namely 25:09 Muhammad Hatta, 25:11 when he passed away, 25:14 when he passed away and returned to the 25:16 mercy of God, in a book or magazine in 25:18 his home library, they found a 25:20 newspaper clipping, 25:22 an advertisement, 25:24 for Swiss-made shoes. So it is 25:27 interpreted that he really wanted those 25:29 shoes but couldn't afford them, 25:33 he couldn't reach them, couldn't get 25:35 them, all because he couldn't afford it 25:37 and so on. So we see 25:42 that the people of Indonesia must be 25:44 aware, must realize that when a leader 25:45 is honest and lives a simple life, 25:50 we must value that. 25:52 When Mohammad Natsir’s clothes were 25:54 patched up and 25:54 yes. 25:55 Like this, Brother Agus, the first fair 25:57 and honest election in Indonesia was in 26:00 1955. Yeah. 26:02 Yes. It was won by the PNI, Masjumi, 26:05 Nahdlatul Ulama, and the PKI. I don’t 26:08 know about this. So my school friend 26:10 named Pangeran Harahab 26:12 and he told me, "Wow, he said, my 26:14 brother in Jakarta was struggling like 26:16 crazy." Why? 26:17 Well, he rode his bike everywhere to 26:19 try and borrow a suit jacket. His 26:21 brother was named Burhanuddin Harahab. 26:23 Oh. 26:24 And he was going to be appointed by the 26:25 President as prime minister. 26:27 He didn't have a suit jacket. 26:28 He didn't have a suit jacket. He went 26:30 by bike, and the ones he found were 26:32 either too big or too small, it just 26:33 wouldn't work. Finally, he did manage 26:35 to borrow a suit jacket, he said. Ah, 26:37 this is interesting. For example, when 26:40 Mar'ie Muhammad—may God have mercy on 26:42 him—was promoted from Director 26:44 General of Taxes to Minister of Finance 26:46 , it’s said he gathered his family, 26:48 his wife and children. And he said, " 26:51 Now that I am a minister, we must be 26:53 frugal." Well, why? It’s not like 26:55 that. Before, as Director General, I 26:58 could still teach at the university on 27:00 the side to supplement my income. As a 27:02 minister, I must be 100%a minister. And 27:06 there is a story that he was laughed at 27:08 ; why on earth would a minister buy his 27:10 children's clothes at Pasar Senen? Ah, 27:12 this cannot be. When there was once one 27:17 of our ministers in the Soeharto era 27:19 who was appointed Minister of Trade, he 27:21 was also mocked by his community. Gosh, 27:25 his car was a Datsun from '74. Look at 27:27 that, his bag was bought at a thrift 27:29 market, tied up with wire, and so on. 27:31 So it is not enough that we know 27:33 Baharuddin Lopa, 27:34 yes. This was an Attorney General who 27:36 was very, very, very honest. I knew him 27:38 , he was indeed a heavy smoker, 27:40 and his wife liked to rent out 27:43 er, rent out, you know, television 27:46 recordings. How could the wife of an 27:49 Attorney General do that, just to 27:51 supplement their income? There was also 27:54 a famous judge, I won't mention his 27:56 name, Sir. A judge at the 27:57 Administrative Court who was known to 27:59 be very honest, 28:01 his wife sold newspapers, sold 28:03 magazines at home. For what reason? To 28:06 make ends meet, to supplement the 28:07 salary. Now, people like this are 28:11 mocked by our society, which I think 28:13 are all still remnants of our feudalism 28:15 . In the past, Indonesia had many 28:20 statesmen who truly placed the 28:21 interests of the nation and the people 28:23 above personal or group interests. Yet, 28:26 now at 81 years of age, it remains a 28:29 homework assignment. We often see 28:31 political and group interests standing 28:33 out more than national interests. Bang 28:35 Noim. 28:36 Yes, that's it. We should always say 28:39 that sovereignty lies in the hands of 28:41 the people. Don't we see in the DPR— 28:44 let me tell you a story, if I may have 28:46 one more minute. 28:48 Go ahead, Bang. 28:49 There is a woman, a Muslim woman. 28:52 Uh-huh. 28:54 From Afghanistan, her name is Fatima 28:56 Taiban. Taiban isn't a Javanese name, 28:59 but an Afghan one. 29:00 Yes. 29:02 And she is a pharmacist. At 27 years 29:07 old, she ran for office for the Labor 29:09 Party in the state of Western Australia 29:11 . 29:13 To become a senator. And she was 29:15 elected. 29:16 Huh. 29:18 Now, when a case occurred, she demanded 29:20 that the Labor Party, her own party, 29:25 urge the Australian government to 29:27 immediately recognize the state of 29:29 Palestine. The government at that time 29:31 had not yet made a decision. Uh-huh. 29:33 She couldn't be fired, but she was, as 29:36 it were, ostracized. So, if there were 29:39 party meetings, she wasn't invited, but 29:41 she couldn't be dismissed. Why couldn't 29:45 she be fired? Because she was elected 29:47 by the people. Only the people have the 29:50 right to remove her. Until now, she is 29:52 still a senator and she formed a new 29:54 party. 29:56 So, here, what is meant by a 29:57 representative council, is it a 29:59 People's Representative Council or a 30:01 Senate? In Indonesia, perhaps, we have 30:07 representatives alongside the DPR, 30:12 who are chosen by the people. 30:15 And what determines whether someone 30:17 stays in their seat in parliament or 30:19 the senate is the people, not the party 30:20 . Not the party. So she doesn't have, 30:26 what, a loyalty to the party. No. But 30:30 her loyalty is to the welfare of the 30:32 people. That is what is important. 30:34 That’s right. Indeed, Bang. And that 30:36 is what we truly hope for. Alright, 30:38 Bang Noim. Thank you very much for our 30:40 dialogue this morning. Hopefully, we 30:42 are all enlightened, and stay healthy 30:44 always, Bang Noim. God willing, we will 30:47 meet again next Monday. "Salam merdeka, 30:49 " Bang Noim. Peace be upon you and 30:51 Allah's mercy and blessings, Bang Noim. 30:53 And unto you, peace and Allah's mercy 30:55 and blessings. 
