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0:03 TV. 0:08 Hello. Peace be upon you, Bang Toni 0:11 Rosid. 0:12 And peace be upon you too, Mas Angga. 0:16 How are you, Bang Toni? Are you feeling 0:19 calm now that the dynamics of the PBNU 0:22 election are over, or are you feeling 0:25 even more anxious, Bang Toni? An 0:30 observer must not let their feelings 0:33 get involved. 0:33 Oh, I see. You shouldn't let feelings 0:35 get involved, right? You must remain 0:37 rational toward any subject. 0:40 So that it is more objective, more 0:44 independent, and provides better ideas 0:48 and input that can become objects of 0:51 discussion or what? Topics for 0:54 discussion. 0:55 Yes. Because we see, Bang Toni, that 0:59 you are part of the larger body of the 1:01 PBNU organization, right, Bang Toni? 1:05 But that could also make the analysis 1:08 sharper, more factual, and more 1:11 balanced because this morning we want 1:15 to discuss, among other things, where 1:18 things are heading. Nahdlatul Ulama 1:22 under Kiai Miftahul Akhyar and Kiai 1:24 Yahya Cholil Staquf, for instance. 1:28 Because the spotlight is still on them. 1:33 The public uses media sources, for 1:35 example, like Tempo's "Bocor Alus." 1:38 It’s trending everywhere right now, 1:41 especially when linking the recent 1:44 congress to political interests. I 1:47 actually found an article by you, Bang 1:50 Toni, titled "Gus Dur between Nation's 1:52 Teacher, President, and Politics." Aha. 1:56 When reading it, it seems there are 2:01 several events that repeat whenever 2:05 PBNU enters a leadership transition era 2:10 . Then, a large organization like that 2:13 always attracts the attention of 2:14 politicians. Well, that's what the 2:17 article says. However, in some events, 2:20 some of the administrators get trapped 2:23 in the vortex of practical politics. 2:27 That's why we want your analysis on how 2:30 to interpret this, as people see the 2:33 kiais in NU as teachers of the nation. 2:37 Yet, in some cases, these teachers of 2:41 the nation cannot handle the challenges 2:44 of the tug-of-war for power. The 2:47 teachers of the nation should be above 2:49 state politics. So, how can they be 2:51 controlled by state politics? Is that 2:53 truly the case, Bang Toni, in its 2:54 journey and up to the most recent 2:56 events today? That is the first thing 2:58 we want to scrutinize. The second thing 3:01 , Bang Toni, relates to the 3:03 electability of political figures. 3:07 Currently, it turns out that surveyors 3:10 or the politicians themselves have 3:12 started to get busy and are beginning 3:15 to build their actual electability. The 3:19 name Prabowo as president and leader, 3:21 the name Dedi Mulyadi also as a 3:23 regional leader. There is also the name 3:25 Mr. Anies, Anies Baswedan, who is 3:27 included in these electability ratings. 3:30 How do you see things going forward, 3:32 Bang Toni? Let’s start with these two 3:34 topics, Bang Toni. Please. 3:38 Right, Mas Angga and all listeners 3:40 wherever you may be. Uh, it is not 3:48 really an apple-to-apple comparison to 3:50 compare Gus Dur with the NU leaders who 3:52 came after him. Gus Dur experienced a 3:57 transformation period from the New 4:00 Order to the reform era. How persistent 4:03 Gus Dur was back then in keeping his 4:09 distance and carrying out critical 4:11 resistance, an ethical resistance 4:13 against the New Order rulers at the 4:16 time. And we can indeed see, even from 4:21 his vehicle, that Gus Dur was a simple 4:23 person, he didn't look like he had 4:25 money, right? He truly lived completely 4:30 for NU. 4:32 Yes. Yes, that cannot be denied. 4:36 Because with Gus Dur's simplicity, when 4:39 he became president, it was NU that 4:42 grew larger, not Gus Dur, in terms of 4:45 infrastructure; it was very clear, that 4:48 is something we need to long for, at 4:51 the very least someone like Gus Dur in 4:55 NU, or even before Gus Dur, NU figures 4:58 were relatively difficult to intervene 5:01 with, they were relatively independent, 5:06 thus possessing a organizational 5:08 dignity strong enough to convey or 5:10 provide control to the government. Yes, 5:14 that's one thing. The second is this, 5:18 whoever the ruler is will intervene. 5:21 Yeah. 5:22 Did Jokowi not intervene previously, 5:24 did others before not intervene? 5:26 Yeah. 5:26 Did SBY not intervene? Even I, if I 5:29 were the ruler, would also intervene. 5:32 That is an inevitability. It is a 5:34 political necessity, 5:36 power. It cannot be avoided. The 5:39 problem is not whether the ruler 5:40 intervenes or not. The problem lies 5:43 within the organization. Are they 5:46 willing to be intervened with? This. 5:51 Let us not misanalyze this. 5:54 Yes. So any ruler in the future, a 5:57 ruler 100 years from now, 1000 years 5:59 from now, will do it. Why? Because NU 6:03 is a large organization that exerts 6:05 influence in many ways. First, on the 6:09 nation's stability. Second, on what? 6:13 Stability of power. Third, on the 6:15 support for power. Support to extend 6:20 power because there is large potential 6:24 within NU. There is a massive vote 6:27 there. Who wouldn't be interested, 6:29 right? 6:30 Yeah. Yes, only those who are not 6:33 involved in politics would not be 6:35 interested in NU, in the sense of this 6:36 massive vote. NU is an organization 6:42 with the largest number of members and 6:46 citizens in Indonesia. So, only a 6:52 foolish ruler would not intervene. 6:56 Hmm. 6:57 Every ruler will carry out intervention 6:59 . Why? First, if NU truly gives its 7:03 support, it can become a strong base of 7:07 support, for example, with Mr. Jokowi 7:11 previously, we can imagine, 7:15 right, 7:16 there were autonomous bodies from NU 7:18 acting as a shield for Mr. Jokowi. 7:20 Hmm. 7:21 The narratives regarding hardline Islam 7:23 and so on were part of the support for 7:25 Mr. Jokowi's government at that time. 7:28 Yes. 7:29 Yes. Will it be like that in the future 7:31 ? The potential is this, the potential 7:36 is at least not being resistant to 7:38 power. 7:40 Hmm. 7:41 Right? The second is...can provide 7:47 support for power stability, so that 7:49 when there is any threat to power, this 7:52 force can be used to provide support 7:57 because of the majority, because they 7:59 have a fairly large mass base, or 8:00 thirdly, when a transformation of power 8:03 occurs, they can provide a voice 8:07 H 8:09 that is the instinct of power, it will 8:12 do this with those three goals. 8:17 Is this then beneficial for the 8:19 organization or harmful? In my opinion, 8:22 it is harmful. 8:23 Yes. 8:24 Now, why is it harmful? If NU has no 8:28 debt of gratitude to anyone, especially 8:31 to those in power, it can be objective 8:33 and independent 8:35 yes 8:37 yes, which can then be above the 8:40 government to maintain the ethics of 8:42 religiosity, which is a responsibility 8:44 and a burden placed on Islamic 8:46 organizations 8:48 if 8:49 religious organizations. So, when 8:52 something happens in the government, 8:55 call out, hey government, hey president 8:59 . Mr. President, this is wrong, Mr. 9:01 President, this is a mistake, it should 9:03 be like this, advise them. So the 9:07 position is above the president, 9:09 ethically and morally, above the 9:11 president to provide advice. And then, 9:16 if the president is actually right and 9:19 many people criticize or downgrade the 9:21 president, they can step in 9:25 without any moral burden. Hey, this 9:28 President is right, what he is doing is 9:30 correct A, B, C, D. This needs to be 9:31 straightened out. Do not hate the 9:34 president. NU will not be accused of 9:36 being a supporter of the president. 9:39 But when the nomination process has 9:41 presidential intervention, it will 9:44 position NU in a dilemma. H 9:48 right? If you want to control, you 9:51 can't just control 9:53 it feels like you have no 9:55 self-awareness. 9:56 That's it. If you then support them, 10:00 people will accuse you, it's natural, 10:03 they are the power's people, right. 10:06 Yeah. 10:08 So the bargaining position becomes weak 10:12 right? Yeah. 10:14 Instead of being above the president 10:17 and able to give advice, 10:21 they actually become an object of 10:23 intervention by the president and one 10:25 day will be used for that. Ah, this is 10:29 called trapping oneself in that process 10:32 . 10:33 Oh, it wasn't successful yesterday. So 10:36 if we look at many videos of kyais 10:39 appearing 10:41 concerned and disappointed with this 10:44 process. 10:46 It can be said that every congress is 10:49 like this. 10:50 Yeah 10:51 this is not just the 2026 congress. 10:56 This has happened before. Because why? 11:00 There is room opened for intervention 11:01 for the ruling power, intervention by 11:03 political parties. Yes. 11:06 There used to be a ruling party in PNO 11:09 because they were truly involved in the 11:12 nomination of the chairman. 11:16 Hm. 11:18 There used to be powerholders who were 11:20 truly involved in PBNU because of 11:21 intervention in the election process. 11:26 Ah, now it is all open, that if the 11:28 ruler doesn't intervene, there is no 11:30 ruler who doesn't intervene. Even I, if 11:33 I were the ruler or president, would 11:35 intervene 11:37 right? Because there are short-term, 11:41 medium-term, and long-term interests. 11:44 Yes, it's impossible. This is a 11:46 necessity for power to intervene. 11:50 So the problem is not, the question is 11:52 not whether the ruler intervenes or not 11:54 . The question is, is the organization 11:58 willing to be intervened in, and 12:00 ultimately co-opted by the interests of 12:03 power? Hm. 12:06 That is what needs to be realized. Ah, 12:09 there was a different atmosphere 12:10 yesterday compared to previous 12:11 congresses. There was an effort to 12:13 resist intervention. That is one point. 12:16 Oh, how was that? Yes. There was an 12:20 effort that tried to emerge. 12:23 Yes, the emergence of the Ahwa was part 12:25 of their initial success in resisting 12:27 intervention. But then, after the start 12:31 , they lost again, didn't they? Yes. Hm 12:33 . 12:34 Yes. Lost again, surely lost again, 12:37 right? 12:39 35, right? 12:40 Yes. And then, what, this Ahwa does not 12:44 apply to the Tanfidziyah. Imagine if it 12:48 applied to the Tanfidziyah. 12:50 Yes. 12:50 Ahwa should not only apply to the Rais 12:53 Aam but also to the Tanfidziyah. So, 12:56 this Ahwa is what determines, acts as 12:59 the formation team to decide who the 13:02 general chairman will be. But the 13:06 condition is that the nine members must 13:08 truly be sterile from intervention. If 13:11 that were strong, the NU would be 13:12 extraordinary. There would be a 13:15 fundamental change in its relationship 13:17 with power and in its relations with... 13:22 society outside of NU or beyond NU. 13:26 But what happened, Brother? 13:29 Well, I have already explained that. 13:32 It was breached as well. Breached as 13:33 well. 13:34 Breached. And that is what was conveyed 13:36 by the clerics in those many videos. 13:38 Yes. Yes. Yes. 13:40 That's it. The videos say, there were 13:42 rumors of 30 million. 13:45 Left behind at a turban stall; why 13:47 would a cleric bring 30 million, right? 13:52 Rumors circulated on social media 13:54 before, millions, it circulated again, 13:56 totaling 250 to 300 million, and so on. 14:01 But, there was even a cleric who made a 14:04 video saying this is not just an 14:06 indicator; I even met the stall owner. 14:11 He is my neighbor, he said, which means 14:14 it is quite hard to deny that the 14:16 congress yesterday was breached and 14:19 infiltrated by intervention. In this 14:22 context, it is power. This becomes a 14:26 common lesson, why NU, why Muhammadiyah 14:29 , have a strong system so they cannot 14:31 be infiltrated by intervention, it's 14:33 because the system is strong, including 14:35 the transformation system for selecting 14:38 leaders. Why are small mass 14:40 organizations, including Islamic ones, 14:42 not intervened in? Because their voice 14:44 is small, their influence is small. 14:46 Hm. 14:47 Why waste energy? If they ask for help 14:50 with a venue, it's given; if they ask 14:52 for operational funds, it's given, 14:54 right? But they don't need to be 14:57 intervened in, because why? They do not 14:59 possess significant bargaining 15:01 potential. Hm. 15:03 If the NU has great bargaining power, 15:05 it is dangerous if it's not held. If, 15:09 by chance, the one who becomes the 15:11 chairman is anti-, different from the 15:13 government, and has the courage, the 15:15 guts to criticize the government, let 15:17 alone resist it. Wow, that is dangerous 15:20 . Hm. 15:22 Because of that, the authorities will 15:24 do everything possible to find a way to 15:27 enter into the NU selection so that, at 15:29 the very least, they can build smooth 15:32 and effective communication with the 15:34 leadership at the PBNU, so that in the 15:37 future, there is no significant 15:39 resistance. 15:41 And hopefully, secure support; after 15:43 all, who wouldn't be tempted by the NU? 15:46 Which politics, sir? Yes. 15:48 Yes. Yes. PKB, PPP. If it's PAN, that's 15:53 impossible, Golkar, and other parties 15:55 might be interested. Even PKS is 15:58 interested, you know. 15:59 Yeah. 16:01 Now, moreover, these other parties, NU 16:03 is politically sexy. 16:06 It is sexy, but morally it should be. 16:12 Muktamar after muktamar has become a 16:15 collective lesson to keep NU from being 16:17 intervened by anyone. Now, 16:22 so that NU remains independent, has a 16:24 significant moral bargaining power, and 16:27 can actively oversee the journey of 16:30 this nation to become a better one in 16:32 the future. So how about that 16:36 independence moving forward with the 16:38 current leadership? Especially since 16:42 there are, what, our speeches that 16:45 align with the president, right? How is 16:48 that, Bang Toni? Well, the speeches are 16:51 certainly like that. 16:53 It definitely provides affirmation, you 16:56 know. 16:59 Affirming it, you see. Just let it be, 17:01 no need. The ones brave enough to speak 17:04 up are the NU people, because I am from 17:05 NU, I must be brave and open, you know. 17:07 Yes. So, it must be open, those who are 17:09 brave enough to talk. NU clerics must 17:13 be genuine, in order to remind everyone 17:16 that NU is a large organization, has a 17:19 great magnetic pull, and will have 17:22 great influence when NU is used as a 17:25 locomotive to oversee the government in 17:28 an appropriate and objective way. 17:32 Yes. Yes. Yes. So, no need to be afraid 17:38 to ask me. 17:41 I’ve been explaining it 17:41 since earlier. 17:42 Yes. Ready. 17:45 Then regarding the second issue, Bang 17:47 Toni, that we will bring up this 17:49 morning is about electability moving 17:50 forward, right? Wow, I didn't realize 17:54 our time is almost up. 17:57 Oh, is that so? For electability, there 18:07 are several survey institutes, like 18:08 Indikator. Although Indikator claims 18:11 not to have 18:13 released their survey results, the 18:14 findings are circulating on various 18:16 social media, right? 18:18 Yes. Yes. Then SMRC released theirs, 18:22 although they released it in 18:24 installments; first about the 18:26 satisfaction rate, then 2 or 3 days 18:29 later, they finally released the, what 18:32 is it, 2 days later, they released the 18:34 electability, you know. This is 18:37 interesting. 18:39 And then Tempo appeared, right? 18:42 Yes. 18:44 Tempo, and finally Median and 18:45 Triomarbun, right? Hm. 18:47 Yes. But it does become a question, 18:53 like this: 18:55 some were very busy, Bang Toni, when 18:57 those results appeared, they were 18:58 immediately busy, immediately 18:59 responsive. 19:03 Yes. Yeah, even without those results, 19:06 the public, what do you call it, the 19:08 dynamics are already intense, right? 19:10 Yeah. 19:12 Mas Angga, why are the survey results 19:14 so far apart? For example, SMRC said 19:17 14.5, right? 19:20 And then Prabowo's electability. 19:23 Hm. 19:24 Then Median said 32 point something 19:29 percent. 19:33 How can in 1 month there be a change of 19:36 15%to 17%, right? 19:39 Yeah. 19:39 Yes. And then I got it from before the 19:43 month of yes, May, right? Well, I got 19:49 this from a polling institute that 19:50 wasn't released, you know. 19:52 Prabowo's electability was 22%. 19:57 Then at Median, it was what? KDM. 20:05 Yeah. At Median, it was 20.6%. 20:10 Yeah. 20:11 But at SMRC, it was, uh, 30-something 20:15 percent, the reverse 20:18 for Prabowo. 20:19 Uh, likewise, I got information from 20:21 another polling institute, right? KDM 20:24 32%. 20:27 Yeah. 20:27 Right? So, what can we gather from this 20:31 very fundamental difference, you know? 20:35 It's like this. 20:39 Angga and all the listeners, surveys 20:41 are, after all, funded. Polling 20:44 institutes can't possibly fund 20:46 themselves. Yes. There are some 20:48 because they are quite large, they 20:49 still exist. But that is perfectly 20:51 legitimate, you know. 20:53 Now, when the, uh, when the survey 20:56 result is, uh, beneficial to the funder 20:59 , they will upload it. 21:01 Hmm. 21:04 But when it's not beneficial, they 21:07 don't upload it, which sides are 21:09 beneficial to disseminate 21:13 and which are not beneficial to 21:15 disseminate. Yes, that's a different 21:17 realm. The survey is conducted 21:20 objectively, but which results are 21:22 announced and which aren't is already 21:24 political, right? Because it depends on 21:30 the interests of the funder, and people 21:32 who pay have interests. 21:33 Yes. They have a motive. 21:34 Yeah. 21:35 Yeah. But there are also times when 21:38 polling institutes manipulate data. For 21:42 instance, they take data, uh, 21:45 respondents, or samples from those 21:48 respondents are arranged so the result 21:51 is what they want. So the random 21:56 sampling isn't actually, uh, 21:58 scientifically random, you know. There 22:01 are cases like that. There are also 22:03 polling institutes that just piggyback, 22:05 uh, on other surveys; why do our own 22:07 survey when we have friends who have 22:09 already surveyed, then we just split, 22:11 uh, the money? That happens too. Ah, we 22:14 start to wonder, there are three 22:16 polling institutes that are similar, 22:18 for example, that KDM's electability is 22:21 around above 30. 22:24 There are three polling institutes we 22:26 read, uh, SMRC, Indikator, then there 22:28 is one polling institute I don't need 22:31 to mention for the sake of the code of 22:33 ethics, right? The results are similar, 22:36 you know. 22:37 Yes. Yes. Yeah. And we also know who 22:39 funds it, regardless of all that, you 22:41 know. Then Median appears, and the 22:44 result is the opposite. 22:46 Hmm. 22:47 Well. Now, which one will people 22:50 believe more? So it needs to be 22:53 verified through the data, how the 22:55 sampling process was conducted, and 22:57 then how the process of, uh, 23:00 what do you call it, analyzing the 23:03 survey results or calculating the 23:05 survey results, processing the data, 23:10 that becomes a question, but regardless 23:13 of that, 2027 will become increasingly, 23:16 uh, festive, this... 23:21 festive, festive entering 23:23 the political years, just political. 23:26 Yeah, especially why entering the 23:29 political year? It should be 2028, 23:32 right, not 2027, because we see, uh, 23:35 that Pak Bowo is no longer strong. 23:38 Hmm. No longer strong in what way? 23:41 Yes, no longer. Tempo says the 23:42 satisfaction rate is 37 percent, you 23:46 know. Median 50. Yeah. 23:49 Oh, 6, call it 52, right? Yeah, meaning 23:54 , let's say, find a middle ground, you 23:57 know. Even though this is not a 23:59 scientifically correct method, right? 24:02 Let's use political language; let's 24:04 just compromise, meet in the middle, 24:06 it's still 40, especially if the 24:08 electability level, there are even four 24:10 survey institutes where the public 24:12 satisfaction rate with Prabowo is below 24:15 40. 24:16 Yeah. Yeah. Let's say a 40 discount, 24:19 but it's still below 50, below 50%. Now 24:23 , this is what then opens up a space, a 24:26 sexy space, you know, a sexy one for 24:29 public discussion. 24:33 Yes. What does that mean? There is a 24:36 space here to oppose Prabowo, you know. 24:38 There is an opportunity here to oppose 24:40 Prabowo. Prabowo is not that strong. 24:42 Not like SBY before, not like Jokowi 24:44 before. This is vulnerable and can be 24:48 defeated. This is what then gives birth 24:52 to the spirit of those who have the 24:54 potential to come forward as Prabowo's 24:56 rivals. 24:58 Now, this is also from one side. On the 25:02 other side, you know, for those who are 25:04 not co-opted by political interests, 25:07 this is a signal that Prabowo's 25:10 leadership is a warning. 25:13 Yes. It could be said that if the 25:16 satisfaction rate continues like this 25:17 until the end, then it can be said to 25:19 be a failure, a failed leadership. Ah, 25:23 this is where Prabowo and his team 25:24 should conduct an evaluation. 25:27 h 25:28 What is wrong, what is lacking. Yeah, 25:32 in my writings several times I have 25:34 conveyed, look, these shortcomings must 25:36 be fixed. 25:37 He he he. 25:38 Including the narrative. Then programs 25:42 that should be planned and managed well 25:45 , then minimize the potential for 25:47 corruption, then fiscal balance so that 25:50 there is central and regional fiscal 25:53 development and fiscal program budgets. 25:58 These are inputs from people like me 26:01 because of love for the country and we 26:03 are still concerned about providing 26:05 input. Mr. Prabowo, there is something 26:09 wrong in Mr. Prabowo's leadership, 26:11 which is why electability and this are 26:13 down. Well, that is an indicator that 26:16 the public is disappointed. Why are 26:19 they disappointed? Where is the 26:20 disappointment? Is that disappointment 26:22 substantial or is it political? It is 26:24 proven that the disappointment is 26:26 indeed substantial. The MBG case, the 26:28 KMP case. 26:30 Right? which then, including what I 26:34 call a case where regions cannot build 26:37 freely because of the reduction in what 26:41 , TKD. 26:45 Yes, the 2025 transfer fund reduction 26:49 is 1 trillion, the 2026 reduction is 26:53 228.26 trillion, and in 2027 it will be 26:58 184 trillion. 27:01 That. Aha. How can the regions build, 27:06 you know? 27:08 Automatically, development will stall. 27:10 If development stalls, then money 27:11 doesn't circulate in the regions. If 27:12 money doesn't circulate in the regions, 27:15 then what? 27:17 Poverty will increase. 27:21 You know. Layoffs and so on, it will 27:23 lead to deflation. That is what is 27:26 happening. Especially with the KMP, 27:29 there are those that are more than half 27:31 , there are those that are less than 27:33 half. Village funds are used for KMP, 27:37 50, uh, 500 million per year for 6 27:39 years. And this will also become, uh, a 27:43 difficulty for regions, becoming 27:45 imbalanced later. 27:47 Yes. Yes, in the end, it's natural that 27:51 there will be a slowdown in economic 27:53 circulation. Slow economic growth that 27:57 ultimately leads to efficiency, uh, 28:01 within, uh, corporations. If it's 28:05 efficiency in corporations, what does 28:06 that mean? Yes, uh, layoffs. If there 28:10 are layoffs, it means it will increase 28:13 the poverty rate and the unemployment 28:15 rate. Isn't that right? 28:18 Now, that is the fiscal balance, 28:19 because it's a result of the fiscal 28:21 balance. Meanwhile, KMP and MBG, which 28:25 are notably, uh, funding priorities 28:29 going there, have not been able to, uh, 28:32 what's it called, compensate for, yes, 28:37 uh, the impact caused by, uh, this 28:40 unbalanced fiscal state. 28:44 And this is proven, yes, we are telling 28:46 the government this so they evaluate it 28:48 . 28:49 H 28:50 like that. Yes, 28:51 that's how it is, Mas Angga. 28:53 And finally, as a closing, Bang Toni, 28:55 regarding the explanation about being 28:56 busy with electability matters and also 28:58 image-building, yes. How can the 29:00 government focus first on taking care 29:02 of the country and its people, yes, for 29:04 those in power? What do you think, Bang 29:06 Toni, as a closing statement? 29:07 Yes. Enduring image-building is, like, 29:10 providing satisfaction to the public, 29:12 to the people. The way to provide 29:15 satisfaction to the people is by 29:16 providing services whose results are 29:18 measurable and felt. by the people, 29:21 that's all. If MBG is correct, for 29:23 example, if the implementation is 29:25 correct and the people truly feel it. 29:27 Especially today, yes, we received 29:30 information in Sidoarjo that there were 29:33 , uh, 200 something people who got food 29:35 poisoning, right. 29:38 Now, those studies are important. We 29:40 have already changed the head, changed 29:43 him up to, uh, twice, right. 29:45 yes. This should be a lesson, yes. uh, 29:49 the point is what? There is a need for 29:54 order in state governance, so that 29:57 every program is feasible, planned well 30:00 , managed well, and in the end, that 30:03 then produces something good. 30:09 Yes, just focus on how to provide 30:11 services to the people in the short 30:13 term, medium term, yes. And then create 30:16 a legacy for the long term. If we focus 30:19 on that, right, uh, I am sure that 30:22 method can happen if, one, uh, what, 30:25 governance in human resource 30:27 recruitment is based on meritocracy. 30:31 People who are professional and have 30:33 the ability. If the program is good, 30:35 but the people aren't good, it won't 30:37 work. 30:37 Yes. 30:38 Yes, it won't work. Then, what's no 30:41 less important is, yes, uh, tightening 30:43 up on corruption potential. If there is 30:47 still room given and it is left or 30:50 there is condoning of, uh, the palace 30:52 circle committing corruption, then 30:54 whatever is done will also not be 30:56 effective. 30:57 H 30:59 it's difficult, you know. So the human 31:01 resources below, who were initially 31:03 meritocracy-based and professional, 31:05 will end up committing corruption too. 31:07 Because why? It's impossible for 31:09 corruption at the top not to involve 31:11 those below. In fact, those below are 31:15 used as, like, a ladder to commit 31:17 corruption. 31:19 you know. If the palace circle is clean 31:24 and has integrity, then its human 31:25 resources are recruited based on 31:27 meritocracy, and the programs will 31:29 automatically be executed with good 31:31 planning and management, and the 31:33 results will automatically be truly 31:35 enjoyed by the public, and that will 31:37 automatically raise electability. 31:41 H 31:41 Exactly. Okay, Bang Toni. Extraordinary 31:44 . Thank you, Bang Toni, for the 31:46 dialogue this morning. Hopefully, it 31:48 enlightened the listeners. God willing, 31:50 we will meet again next week. 31:52 Assalamu'alaikum warahmatullahi 31:54 wabarakatuh. Wa'alaikumussalam 31:55 warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. 
