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0:00 Result TV. Peace be upon you, and 0:09 Allah's mercy and blessings. How are 0:11 you, Mas Toni? 0:13 And peace be upon you, and Allah's 0:15 mercy and blessings. I'm doing well, 0:17 Mr. Iksan. 0:18 Praise be to God. What's the news? 81 0:21 years of independence, it seems. Oh, it 0:25 seems so. 0:26 Okay. Are we truly independent? 0:28 That's what they say, right? 0:29 Independent from the Netherlands, at 0:31 least. Although, 0:32 many questions happen to come my way, " 0:35 Are we really independent?" I say I 0:37 cannot answer that yet. 0:39 Yeah, indeed. Settling the debts and 0:42 calculations, it only finished with the 0:44 Netherlands in '01. Yes. But what is 0:47 happening with, uh, this symbol of 0:50 independence? It seems at the age of 81 0:54 , the regions and the center, which are 0:57 supposedly decentralized, are actually 0:59 at odds with each other. This becomes 1:02 another note. And what are the signs, 1:05 brother? Yes, why is it that from Nias, 1:08 Krakatoa, NTB, to NTT, the mountains 1:10 are all erupting? What is happening? Is 1:15 the protest from the student executive 1:17 board, Fatimah Azzahra, not enough to 1:19 remind this nation, or have people 1:21 become truly thick-skinned or what? 1:25 Meanwhile, the scholars are busy with 1:27 their congress. Who knows what they are 1:28 dealing with there. Lobbying here and 1:30 there. Actually, Mr. Prabowo is busy 1:34 saying that one in four Indonesian 1:36 children is suffering from stunting. 1:39 But, half of that nutritious meal 1:40 budget goes to the operators, right? 1:42 Half for the administration, what on 1:44 earth is happening to this nation of 1:46 ours? Maybe there are other issues, 1:48 about whether we are truly independent? 1:52 Perhaps that is what Mas Tony Rosid 1:54 will convey, along with various other 1:56 stories that the public wants to hear 1:58 from your writings and analyses as an 2:00 observer of the nation. Please, Dr. 2:03 Toni Rasyid. 2:05 Very well, Mr. Isan and all listeners. 2:08 Let us start with the disasters. Yes. 2:11 Both earthquakes and volcanic eruptions 2:13 . Uh, we share the grief, we express 2:17 our deep condolences, especially to the 2:21 families who lost their relatives in 2:24 NTT, where dozens have passed away, for 2:27 instance. Uh, may they be given 2:31 patience in this trial, and may there 2:36 be a swift recovery for everything 2:40 affected by that earthquake. On the 2:45 15th, Mr. Ehsan, there were three 2:48 earthquakes. 2:50 Hm. 2:50 There was an earthquake in NTT 2:54 it was 7.7 on the Richter scale. Then 2:58 there was an earthquake in Simalungun, 3:01 Sumatra, at 6.4 on the Richter scale. 3:05 There was also one in Pariki at 5.9 on 3:07 the Richter scale. What is being 3:12 discussed more is the one in NTT 3:14 because the impact was quite 3:17 devastating, with dozens of casualties. 3:22 Uh, we also hope that, uh, not only in 3:24 NTT but also in Simalungun and Pariki 3:27 in the Sumatra region, the state will 3:29 provide attention. But also, uh, the 3:34 NGOs that have been concerned about 3:37 disasters, uh, hopefully they have the 3:41 capacity and remain spirited to help 3:44 manage and assist the state, which is 3:48 quite limited. Yes. 3:51 In the past, whenever there was an 3:53 earthquake, I always remembered ACT. 3:55 ACT, whenever there was an earthquake, 3:57 they were right there, it's such a pity 3:58 . 3:58 such a massive potential, right. And 4:02 then, suddenly because of a case, ACT 4:05 gets shut down. If there were personal 4:10 issues, for example, just deal with the 4:12 individuals, but don't shut down ACT. 4:14 Also, don't burn the house down. Yeah. 4:17 Well, it seems some were very eager to 4:20 burn the house down, right. It seems 4:22 those who were so eager are now having 4:24 problems themselves, right. That's 4:27 another language, right. Another 4:28 language, the language of intuition. A 4:30 language to be considered as having 4:32 wisdom, the language of intuition. Then 4:35 yesterday there were also volcanoes 4:39 erupting, or "coughing" as Mr. Ihsan 4:42 said, like Mount Ibu in North Maluku. 4:46 Yeah. 4:47 Then there was Mount Semeru in East 4:50 Java. There was also another volcano, 4:54 uh in NTT, right, that one in NTT too 4:58 Flores, that is 5:00 uh, Lewotobi 5:02 yes. 5:04 Ah, so as someone who pays attention to 5:08 spiritual elements, what is actually 5:12 going on here? Why is it that three 5:19 days before independence, three 5:22 earthquakes occurred, and then three 5:25 days later, three volcanoes erupted, 5:29 right? 5:31 Three days later, what else is going to 5:32 emerge, you know. 5:34 Is this related to the strong protests 5:38 from MUI and NU recently? 5:41 That we must oppose LGBT. Is it that 5:45 LGBT is rampant in Indonesia, causing 5:48 MUI to shout so loudly, pushing for 5:51 this to be included in the draft 5:54 legislation, the national legislative 5:57 program? I always say, if MUI, 6:00 Muhammadiyah, and NU would just write 6:03 the draft and go to the DPR and the 6:06 President, it’s impossible for it not 6:10 to be accommodated if these three are 6:13 serious about it, you know. 6:16 Yes. The problem is, uh, how high is 6:20 the level of MUI's seriousness. Being 6:23 serious isn't just about the narrative, 6:25 but being serious about fighting for it 6:27 with tactical steps. Gather the three 6:31 major organizations—I'm sure all 6:33 organizations, especially Islamic ones, 6:35 should be invited—and then go to the 6:37 President. Up until now, organizations 6:41 haven't really gone to the President, 6:43 but rather have been invited just to 6:45 listen to the President's venting, 6:46 right. And some were even taken on 6:50 trips to Uzbekistan, right. That's fine 6:53 , it's also good, right. What I mean is 6:56 , this is a momentum to have access to 6:58 the authorities. 7:02 The organizations must have a shared 7:05 agenda to improve this nation, 7:07 obviously not everything. Since MUI and 7:10 NU have already been vocal about LGBT, 7:13 right? Just draft the text, create the 7:17 proposal, and then go to the 7:19 authorities together. I am certain that 7:22 if NU, Muhammadiyah, MUI, and all other 7:24 organizations ask the President, there 7:27 is no reason for the President to 7:28 refuse. Ask to meet with the DPR, 7:32 especially Commission III or others, 7:35 and then ask the DPR leadership; for 7:38 example, there is no reason for them to 7:41 refuse, right. So, who knows, maybe 7:46 with this spirit, the volcanoes will 7:49 stop protesting, right. The seas under 7:53 the ocean are protesting, causing 7:54 earthquakes like that. Perhaps that is 7:57 the meaning, or perhaps that is the 8:01 intuition behind it. 8:03 Extraordinary. Extra- 8:03 ordinary. Okay. That is one thing. We 8:08 hope to share our concern and our 8:11 condolences, and we hope it can be 8:14 resolved by the government together 8:17 with NGOs and the wider community 8:20 helping with the impacts of the 8:22 earthquake and volcanic eruptions that 8:26 have caused material damage and other 8:29 suffering, folks. To be resolved, at 8:33 least provide whatever help the state 8:37 and the private sector can afford to 8:40 give. Yes. 8:42 Now, Mr. Ihsan, regarding the free 8:45 nutritious meal program. 8:49 Right? Like this, Mr. Ihsan. What 8:55 about this meal program, it's not like 9:00 the house itself is being rejected, but 9:04 the construction process, its 9:07 management, and so on, that is what is 9:12 being discussed by the public. 9:17 Yes. 9:18 Correct. Everyone agrees. Stunting must 9:21 be addressed, poverty must be addressed 9:23 , malnutrition must be addressed. That 9:26 is correct, everyone agrees, no one can 9:28 reject that. But does addressing it 9:31 have to be in the form of this meal 9:33 program? That is one thing. 9:36 Okay, let's say we agree on the meal 9:38 program. But there are problems that 9:41 are being protested. So the protest is 9:46 not solely toward the meal program 9:48 itself, but toward the process 9:50 discussed regarding it. For instance, 9:54 there is no mature planning. 9:58 It should be planned maturely: 1,000 10:01 first, 5,000 next, then 10,000 later. 10:04 Instead, it immediately goes massive, 10:07 which then consumes a large budget. 10:10 This is holistic; this is the problem, 10:12 it is holistic, one thing is related to 10:15 another. Being so massive or unplanned, 10:19 then being massive, what is the result? 10:23 The budget is wasted, taking from 10:25 various other budgets. It is more like 10:29 living beyond one's means; that is the 10:33 problem, Mr. Ihsan. If you manage 10:37 family finances, oh, there's a new 10:38 program, this is needed, but our 10:40 financial capacity is only this much, 10:42 so just do this much first, process it, 10:44 add more later, add more later, right? 10:47 Exactly. 10:49 Things that are already running in the 10:51 regions, in the villages, and so on are 10:53 already running. That relates not only 10:59 to the budget, but the budget has 11:02 implications for human resource 11:04 development, infrastructure development 11:08 , economic circulation, growth, 11:10 financial turnover, and economic growth 11:14 ; it is all related. When this is cut 11:19 in 2025 by trillions, it causes 11:21 distress. Then another cut in 2026 of 11:25 226 trillion makes it even more 11:27 distressing. They are already crying 11:31 out, right? Yes. 11:34 It should have been rationalized, but 11:37 there is still a cut in 2027 of 184 11:40 trillion. In my opinion, it is not too 11:44 late to conduct an evaluation. Back 11:48 again to the program, we have no issue 11:50 with it. The people are also happy with 11:53 priority programs if they truly benefit 11:55 the people. but one must not then, uh, 11:58 sacrifice other programs that seem as 12:00 if they don't directly benefit the 12:02 people, you know. Yeah. 12:04 Yes. The central government shouldn't 12:07 think that the regions are incapable, 12:09 that the regions are corrupt, or that 12:10 the regions cannot be trusted. 12:14 Meanwhile, when there is efficiency in 12:16 creating priority programs handled 12:17 directly by the center, what happens? 12:20 More corrupt. The Red and White 12:22 cooperative. 12:23 In this—this is just—just talking 12:25 about MBK. Not even the cooperative yet 12:27 . 12:27 Just talking about MBK. So, uh, because 12:31 the planning wasn't, uh, wasn't mature 12:33 and then became massive, it finally led 12:36 to a broken budget. 12:40 Then finally, because tens of thousands 12:42 were built in a short time, what 12:44 happened then? The room for corruption 12:47 became wider, and it was done. It’s 12:50 already known that life isn't fun for 12:52 Indonesian officials. If they don't 12:54 commit corruption, uh, when given the 12:56 land, you know, it’s even more fun, 12:58 right? Think of it like this, I have a 13:00 friend who owns ships. These are my 13:02 friend's ships, not all ships are my 13:04 friend's, right? My friend has over 100 13:07 ships. He knows that their fuel, the 13:10 ship crews, they steal. But if they 13:13 don't steal, even if they are given 13:15 money instead of stealing, it’s not 13:16 fun, they say. So the art is in 13:19 stealing, right? Knowing that, right? 13:23 Entertainment and a hobby. 13:25 Indonesian officials are thieves. Give 13:29 them the land, and it’s wiped out in 13:31 a day, billions. That's what— 13:35 uh, gets caught by the public, right? 13:39 So, Sir. And then what? 13:43 They all steal together, especially 13:45 from the elite level. Then it trickles 13:47 down, and they join in stealing too, 13:48 right? Then, uh, uh, the management is 13:52 already a mess, right? Now, this 13:55 becomes a complete disaster, right? So, 13:57 there’s no need to then make 13:59 justifications. So, in Pareto's terms, 14:02 there is the term, uh, 'residue,' and 14:04 then in that residue, there is an urge 14:07 that becomes the basis for acting, for 14:09 making policies and decisions. Then 14:13 from that, 'derivation' seeks a means 14:16 of justification. 14:18 So then, uh, we already know about 14:20 stunting. Yes, yes. And, uh, Mr. 14:24 Prabowo, why have I never suggested it 14:27 be canceled? Mr. Prabowo can't, because 14:30 MBK is Mr. Prabowo's face, his 14:32 political face. If it gets canceled, 14:35 that’s the end of it. 14:36 Yeah. 14:37 Yes, I am absolutely convinced that if 14:39 this is stopped, the satisfaction level 14:41 toward Mr. Prabowo won't rise, it will 14:43 drop further, and his electability will 14:45 also continue to fall. 14:47 Hm. Yeah. 14:48 Yes. Because this is the face that Mr. 14:50 Prabowo is proud of. If MB fails, then 14:52 that is Mr. Prabowo's failure. If MB 14:55 stops, that is Mr. Prabowo stopping. So 14:57 it must be maintained. The second is 14:59 that this involves the private sector. 15:02 There is already a contract. If the 15:04 term in Islamic law is*al-muslimuna ' 15:06 ala shurutihim*, right? So there is 15:09 already an MOU, right? There is already 15:12 a contract, even though the contract is 15:14 constantly being, being revised, 15:16 revised in a way that the government's 15:18 revisions harm the private sector. Ah, 15:21 that is often unfair, you know, not 15:23 fair. But if it is canceled, the 15:25 businessman will be even angrier. 15:27 Impossible. So this is already moving 15:28 forward, right? Uh, there is one 15:30 sentence from Mr. Prabowo that I agree 15:32 with, that there is currently an 15:34 improvement. Well, we are waiting for 15:36 the realization of that. There is a 15:38 process of improvement and it must be 15:39 improved. We understand, Mr. Risan, 15:43 with all of his programs, Mr. Prabowo 15:46 wants, for example, to implement, uh, 15:52 this 15:53 uh, Article 33 of the 1945 Constitution 15:57 , which is a populist economy. Mr. 15:59 Prabowo wants to create, uh, what? To 16:03 realize social justice, the fifth 16:04 principle in Pancasila. We capture his 16:08 enthusiasm and spirit to carry that out 16:10 . This is socialist, even if it is not 16:12 socialism, right. This is a socialist 16:15 movement, wanting to uplift the people. 16:18 The problem is, everywhere there is a 16:19 socialist state, sir, 16:21 H 16:21 or communist in this context, right. 16:24 Whether it's China, whether it's Russia 16:27 , whether it's especially China and 16:29 then North Korea, 16:32 corruption is wiped out, they get 16:34 hanged. It is impossible for socialist 16:40 programs to be implemented well if the 16:43 room for corruption is so wide and the 16:45 corruptors are roaming free. It’s 16:50 impossible. H 16:53 Yes, why China succeeded in, uh, 16:56 creating, uh, what, their socialist 16:58 programs, right, is because the space 17:01 for corruption was wiped out and closed 17:03 , and then the corruptors were wiped 17:06 out, so it became a very effective 17:08 preventive measure; we don't have that. 17:12 h 17:14 We agree with those socialist programs, 17:17 but, well, like Dadang, sorry, the 17:19 situation is already like that. It’s 17:23 severe. 17:24 Hm. 17:24 There should be a firing squad 17:25 punishment, if there is a death penalty 17:30 , shot in the field, five officials who 17:33 are corrupt, God forbid, you know. Well 17:37 , I think, wow, tomorrow everyone's 17:39 satisfaction level with Mr. Prabowo 17:42 would rise to 80%, not just 51.1%. 17:44 He. 17:45 Mr. Prabowo's electability rate 17:47 wouldn't lose to Dedi Mulyadi. He 17:50 something like that, for example. Yes. 17:52 So, 17:53 Uh, this is a suggestion, a suggestion. 17:56 I usually speak, and this also reaches 17:58 Mr. Prabowo, writing to Mr. Prabowo, 18:00 that is my advice, Mr. Prabowo, right. 18:03 Mr. Prabowo, those high-level 18:06 corruptors, Mr. Prabowo, whether they 18:08 are Mr. Prabowo's friends, colleagues, 18:11 people in Mr. Prabowo's circle, put 18:14 them in Monas, shoot them, Mr. Prabowo, 18:17 right? That, that would immediately go 18:21 up, ah. The second socialist program is 18:25 , yes. 18:26 Uh, meritocracy-based in managing the 18:29 bureaucracy. 18:31 Technocracy based on meritocracy means 18:33 what? Not colleagues, not close friends 18:37 , but those who have the capacity; if 18:39 it happens that those with competence 18:41 are friends, that’s even better. 18:45 It shouldn't be forced, it doesn't 18:47 matter if they are friends or not. 18:50 What's important is having tested and 18:52 measurable competence. Ah, that is when 18:57 the socialist programs will work. Yeah. 19:00 Yes, otherwise it's difficult. If we 19:03 then talk about the KMP in relation to, 19:06 uh, what, funding, centralization, and 19:09 decentralization. 19:12 We are indeed decentralized. 19:15 Uh, there was a meeting, and I 19:17 participated there to provide input, 19:19 well, at that time they invited someone 19:22 named Rias Rasyid, the person who 19:25 initially had the idea for 19:27 decentralization, Prof. Dr. Rias Rasyid 19:29 . Hm. 19:33 So he said that decentralization was 19:36 not a protest, not a proposal from the 19:39 regions or from below, but it was from 19:43 the center. Reform happened, then the 19:47 elite gave something that happened to 19:50 be from the regions, the elite were new 19:52 people. 19:54 Hm. 19:55 Who were previously middle-class 19:57 citizens, they hadn't become elite, 19:59 they hadn't been part of power, they 20:01 rose to power, so the spirit and soul 20:03 of being a citizen was still strong, 20:05 which eventually led to 20:06 decentralization. 20:10 Yes, but then in the process there was 20:11 a process of centralization, especially 20:13 in the previous period, where the 20:15 centralization process became even 20:16 stronger. So I say it like this, I am 20:20 using an analogy created by Marx. I am, 20:24 uh, this, I am quoting Marx. I am not 20:26 saying this is the same or not. No. 20:29 Marx said that no monkey saws off the 20:32 branch or the tree trunk it is sitting 20:35 on, you see. 20:37 Meaning, I am not saying that the elite 20:40 are monkeys. No. Yes, this is Karl 20:43 Marx's analogy that I am taking. Uh, it 20:47 is just an analogy that I take from 20:50 Marx, it is impossible for a person or 20:53 a group of people to destroy their own 20:56 comfort zone. 20:59 They are already comfortable there. So 21:02 what is sought is creating comfort for 21:05 even greater comfort. Hm. 21:09 Yes. That is where, if we read the 21:11 theory about the elite, starting from 21:13 what? Vilfredo Pareto, then Gaetano 21:18 Mosca, then the elite theory of, uh, 21:21 what is it called, Robert Michels, and 21:24 so on. Speaking of the elite, the Quran 21:27 also has it, the Hadith also has it. 21:30 One of the Quranic verses is like this. 21:32 This is Rasyid's language that I am 21:34 quoting. When he quotes this Quranic 21:36 verse, Right, "I will not bring forth a 21:49 reformer," that is, a renewalist who 21:52 will make a change, without efforts 21:56 being made by the elite, who are in 21:59 power, to oppose and thwart it. 22:03 That is the theory, right, Mr. Ihsan? 22:08 So, what we then understand is that 22:10 centralization has become an elite 22:13 interest that is not just maintained, 22:15 but continues to be solidified and 22:17 intensified. What happens next is, the 22:23 policies implemented by the government 22:26 cut the funds, cut the regional 22:30 transfers (TKD), consisting of the 22:33 General Allocation Fund (DAU), Special 22:37 Allocation Fund (DAK), DPA, 22:39 revenue-sharing funds, special autonomy 22:43 funds, and other funds as well. That, 22:48 sir, the Village Fund, that, Mr. Ihsan, 22:52 is part of centralization. 22:56 Yes, and this then sparks anger, for 22:59 example in Central Papua. 23:02 Yes, even to the point of arson, yes. 23:04 Then it can also be understood, Aceh, 23:06 yes, there is public anger there and 23:09 this could spread. If we talk to our 23:12 friends at APPSI, then the Association 23:15 of Regents, mayors, uh, district heads, 23:17 Mr. Ihsan, they are all actually 23:19 restless and angry. Just to pay, just 23:23 to cover personnel expenditures is 23:25 overwhelming, yes. In the end, they 23:29 think, the ones who appear are the P3K, 23:30 but the temporary workers don't appear. 23:33 Because why? The positioning of 23:35 temporary workers is, uh, well, weak, 23:37 while the positioning of P3K is strong 23:38 because they have clear appointment 23:40 letters. 23:42 h 23:42 Yes, it becomes high, so finally, 23:44 there's a commotion, just for those 23:46 expenses, they will have difficulty. 23:48 There are even 140 regions that are 23:50 already in deficit, yes. Uh, because of 23:53 that, Mr. Ihsan, this is the logic of 23:55 why our economic growth is struggling, 23:58 it's difficult. Especially, we see that 24:01 almost around 80%of regional economic 24:04 growth is below 5%. Why? Let's take an 24:09 example, we are talking about, uh, what 24:11 is it, we are talking about the Red and 24:14 White cooperatives, Sir. 24:16 Hm. The Red and White Cooperative is, 24:19 uh, indeed in the hands of Agrinas, the 24:21 budget is 3 billion, yes, then 24:23 borrowing from the bank, not to mention 24:25 the interest. So the obligation of, the 24:30 obligation of, uh, the village region, 24:33 yes, is to pay 500 million. I have 24:37 chatted with several villages, those 24:38 village heads. 24:40 That 500 million. 24:42 They. 24:45 Deposit every year for 6 years, later 24:47 if it turns out it doesn't run. 24:51 Because it's true, one strategy, it's 24:53 not easy to create a management at once 24:55 , that's not easy, minimarkets, those 24:57 have long processes, they build them 24:58 first, this one directly. 25:01 I hear. 25:01 What then happens. 25:04 Please go ahead. 25:05 If that's abandoned, if it's abandoned, 25:08 it will explode, Mr. Ihsan. 25:11 No, no, it's not abandoned, they're 25:12 looking for the buildings. 25:14 Is it right or not? The place isn't 25:17 strategic. 25:18 Yes. Uh, there is one area, I went to 25:21 an area, the distance is only about 50 25:24 to 100 meters. 25:27 So they're close together, how can they 25:30 sell? Yes, it's different from 25:32 minimarkets. Then this is not, uh, not 25:34 complete. The goods. 25:37 In there. Then thirdly, the location, 25:40 there are some, like in my village, on 25:42 the edge of a cemetery, far from the 25:44 hustle and bustle of society, from the 25:46 community, yes, which they say is about 25:48 20%or whatever, we need to check that 25:50 again. Meaning if this then explodes, 25:54 it could, if it then snakes everywhere, 25:56 the question is, what is the budget 25:58 anyway, why is the building like that, 26:00 right? Finally, people ask, is it 26:03 really in accordance with the budget or 26:05 not? This is the goods, just like that. 26:08 Later, if it turns out it's in deficit, 26:09 and it's managed and then it's in a 26:11 deficit, those employees have already 26:12 been hired, who will finance that, is 26:14 it the deficit that uses the village 26:15 funds again? They say. 26:20 If it's the village funds again, when 26:22 will the village, when will the funds, 26:25 when will the village build, yes, how 26:27 can money in the village rotate, there 26:29 is money circulation, that is the 26:31 problem, Sir, yes, 184 trillion as an 26:34 efficiency reduction from the funds, 26:36 well, uh, the regional transfer funds 26:38 really need to be re-evaluated while it 26:41 hasn't been realized yet. Is it true 26:44 that it must be 184 trillion? Because 26:48 in any case, this will threaten 26:50 regional economic circulation, right. 26:54 It is not about the numbers, but the 26:56 consequence of those numbers is that 26:58 financial circulation in the region 27:01 will shrink, which ultimately means 27:03 economic growth will also decline, will 27:05 shrink as well. The poverty rate will 27:09 rise, the unemployment rate will rise. 27:12 That is automatically, if we look at 27:14 this from a simple layman's perspective 27:17 in macroeconomics, if there is a lot of 27:20 funding. Unless the regions are truly 27:23 given space for their locally-generated 27:26 revenue, for permits, for instance, by 27:29 creating small-scale mining permits 27:31 everywhere, right? So, nickel can be 27:35 managed under these small-scale permits 27:38 , and other things can be managed 27:40 locally, and the Minister of Energy and 27:42 Mineral Resources shouldn't take all 27:45 the permits, but divide them among the 27:47 regions so they have revenue. Then, for 27:52 the locally-generated revenue and its 27:54 redistribution, the players involved 27:55 should be addressed, as Mr. Isan 27:57 mentioned, if you want to be socialist 27:58 about it. This is about social justice, 28:03 so the central players and the big 28:06 shots should step aside and let the 28:08 regions manage it. Let’s say there 28:13 are seaports, land ports, and various 28:16 other facilities. Let the local people 28:21 manage them. If that is done, then 28:24 locally-generated revenue will rise, 28:26 and regional economic circulation will 28:27 grow, right? That would be a 28:30 counterbalance to efficiency. If this 28:32 is not done and it’s just about 28:34 efficiency, then the regions will 28:36 collapse. Understood. 28:38 This is just Papua. I hope there are no 28:40 other Papuas. I hope there are no other 28:42 [Acehs], like that. Well, it seems time 28:46 is what separates us. Uh, Bang Toni. Ah 28:50 , where was the ceremony yesterday? No, 28:53 it was in Pati with the shadow cabinet, 28:55 Mr. Toni, for the flag ceremony. 28:57 Oh, I didn't get one. Didn't get an 28:59 invitation? I got an invitation. 29:01 I will come. 29:02 Yes. It seems this shadow cabinet is a 29:06 hope for criticism because the students 29:08 were tired of facing the Central 29:10 Jakarta Police Chief in the field 29:12 yesterday. Yes, as a closing, what 29:14 would you like to remind us of, Mas 29:16 Toni, after 30 minutes of our 29:18 discussion? Please, Mas Toni. 29:20 Alright. From events that are direct or 29:24 indirect, right, Ma? uh, direct or 29:28 indirect tragedies. Let's make them 29:31 material for evaluation. The first to 29:35 carry out that evaluation must be the 29:38 government, in whose hands lies the 29:40 policy that will impact the fate of the 29:43 people's future and the future of the 29:46 nation. That must be truly measurable. 29:51 Don't let the reality of Indonesia be 29:53 different from what is imagined in the 29:55 president's speeches. 29:57 Yes. Why? Because those speeches are 30:01 born from input from, of course, good 30:03 ministers and good institutions. 30:06 Meanwhile, in reality, there are many 30:08 things that must be improved. Therefore 30:11 , in my opinion, this evaluation is 30:14 truly important for the entire reality 30:16 in a comprehensive manner. What is 30:20 happening, what is currently in process 30:23 , and what are the obstacles and 30:26 challenges. Let all the data be opened 30:30 by the central government, by the 30:32 authorities, and then let’s find some 30:34 remedies; even if they are bitter, they 30:36 will lead to a healthier future. That 30:39 is the most important thing. As for how 30:43 the people can unite, in the Preamble 30:46 of the 1945 Constitution, the second 30:48 paragraph, it states it leads the 30:51 Indonesian people to the gateway of 30:54 independence of an Indonesian state 30:57 that is free, united, sovereign, just, 31:00 and prosperous. If this becomes a 31:04 standard, one that is good in both 31:06 process and goal, sir, God willing, the 31:08 Indonesian people will be united. So, 31:13 unity is nonsense if we do not build 31:16 obligations and responsibilities 31:18 together and experience our rights 31:21 together. That is it, sir. 31:24 God willing. Thank you, Mas Toni, for 31:25 accompanying our listeners this morning 31:27 . May God grant you blessings and 31:30 health. Amen, oh Lord of the worlds. 31:32 See you next week, God willing. Peace 31:34 be upon you, and God's mercy and 31:35 blessings. And peace be upon you, and 31:37 God's mercy and blessings. 
