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0:13 berasil Brail TV berasil Brail Berasil 1:18 TV Brail TV berasil Brail Brail Berasil 3:07 Brail Brail Brail Brail Brail Brail 4:42 berasil TV. All praise is due to Him 4:54 who sent down the Book to His servant 5:04 and made no crookedness in it [It is] 5:11 upright, to warn of a severe punishment 5:15 from Him and to give good tidings to 5:29 the believers who do righteous deeds 5:37 that they will have a good reward in 5:44 which they will remain forever. He has 5:56 children They have no knowledge of it, 6:04 nor did their fathers. Great is the 6:12 word that comes out of their mouths; 6:21 they speak nothing but a lie. Then 6:26 perhaps you would kill yourself over 6:30 their tracks. Out of grief over this 6:40 message. Indeed, We have made that 6:49 which is on the earth adornment for it 6:52 to test them [as to] which of them is 6:57 best in deed. And indeed, We will make 7:03 that which is upon it [into] a barren 7:09 ground. Or have you thought that the 7:14 companions of the cave and the 7:16 inscription were, among Our signs, a 7:24 wonder? When the youths retreated to 7:30 the cave and said, "Our Lord, grant us 7:37 from Yourself mercy and facilitate for 7:45 us from our affair right guidance." 7:50 Allah the Almighty has spoken the truth 7:52 . Peace be upon you, and Allah's mercy 7:57 and blessings. Dear leaders and 8:08 aspiring leaders throughout Indonesia 8:10 and abroad. Welcome back to the 8:13 Indonesia Leader Talk program every 8:16 Friday night, which tonight takes on a 8:18 theme that looks at a slightly 8:20 different perspective, how the state's 8:23 role is in increasing the people's 8:25 income. My dear friends, the state is 8:30 managed by politicians. And when these 8:35 politicians do not have the capability 8:37 and sufficient understanding of the 8:40 economy, how to increase the people's 8:43 income, how to eradicate poverty, how 8:46 to...increase the gross income of the 8:51 state and regions, it results in the 8:54 state's leadership and regional 8:56 government merely revolving around an 8:59 oligarchy and fighting over power 9:01 without any impact or influence on 9:04 achieving the state's goals to increase 9:07 people's welfare and improve the 9:09 quality of life for the people. This is 9:14 one of the main challenges and problems 9:17 in our nation when many leaders have an 9:20 orientation only toward politics and 9:22 power, but do not have the serious 9:25 capability to be able to increase the 9:28 welfare and income of the masses. So, 9:33 our country, after so many decades of 9:37 independence, is still in the 9:39 middle-income category, which some term 9:43 as being caught in the middle-income 9:47 trap. And we long for many leader 9:51 figures in our country who have the 9:54 capability to increase people's welfare 9:56 and income, and how is that actually 9:59 done? Why has the state's role in 10:03 increasing the people's income been 10:06 felt as minimal, or if it exists, it is 10:09 only for a handful of elite people, the 10:12 capitalists, or perhaps those who are 10:16 already prosperous and becoming even 10:18 more so, while the masses still lack 10:21 the capability? For that, we have 10:26 several speakers with us today who will 10:29 later discuss how the state's role 10:31 should actually be in increasing the 10:33 people's income and public welfare in 10:36 general. Yes. First, already present 10:41 with us is an economist, uh, and also a 10:50 researcher from, uh, WALHI. And later, 10:56 also joining us, uh, Uh, the Governor 11:06 of NTB, Mr. Zulkieflimansyah, who will 11:07 join us later, and uh, INDEF economist, 11:09 Mr. Tauhid Ahmad. Peace be upon you, he 11:12 is already here, and also Mr. Zenzi 11:15 Suhadi, Executive Director of WALHI, is 11:18 also here with us. We will look at this 11:21 from an economic perspective and also 11:23 from the perspective of sustainable 11:25 development, uh, concerning the 11:26 environment. And also from Mr. Zulkifli 11:30 , we want to hear, uh, about his plans 11:33 and the success stories he has achieved 11:35 because he has an economic background 11:38 as a regional head, on how to massively 11:40 increase the people's income and 11:43 regional revenue. And those who will 11:46 also be with us later, uh, always with 11:49 our host, uh, Mr. Marwah Daud Ibrahim, 11:52 and also, uh, Mr. Rocky Gerung. Before 11:56 we go, uh, to the opening presentation 11:59 from Mr. Tauhid Ahmad, uh, I would like 12:02 to thank all the loyal viewers of 12:04 Indonesia Leaders Talk, uh, who 12:07 continue to faithfully join this event, 12:10 watching this show, uh, which can be 12:13 watched live via, uh, the PKS TV 12:16 YouTube channel, uh, Rasel TV, yes, and 12:19 also Marwah Daud Ibrahim's channel. 12:23 Then, uh, it is also broadcast live 12:27 through the radio channel, uh, Rasel 12:30 720 AM. For friends who want to listen 12:34 via the radio channel, you are welcome 12:37 to tune in to the Rasel 720 AM radio 12:39 channel. And I also express my 12:43 gratitude to all the media colleagues 12:45 and journalists who continue to cover, 12:48 join, watch this event, and also help 12:50 report on the content of this show. 12:55 Hopefully, uh, the input from these 12:57 speakers can provide political 12:59 intelligence and also suggestions to 13:01 our leaders to take policies that are 13:04 pro-people, uh, based on common sense, 13:06 science, and noble conscience. Alright, 13:11 friends, uh, we are entering the Oh, 13:14 the Governor of NTB is already with us, 13:18 Governor Zulkiflimansyah. Peace be upon 13:21 you, Governor. Alright. Uh, while 13:28 waiting for the Governor, later we will 13:30 , uh, ask for an introduction first 13:32 from Mr. Tauhid Ahmad as an, uh, INDEF 13:34 economist, to Mr. Tauhid Ahmad. The 13:37 floor is yours, sir. 13:39 Yes. Thank you, Mas Fi. Peace be upon 13:42 you, Governor. Peace be upon you, Mr. 13:46 Zenzi, friends from ILT, and all the 13:48 ladies and gentlemen watching this 13:51 event. Thank you for the opportunity, 13:55 uh, to be able to share knowledge or 13:58 even for me to receive feedback or 14:00 input from all the speakers and all of 14:02 you. Now, speaking of the government's 14:07 role, of course, uh, there are many 14:09 things that, uh, if we talk 14:10 conceptually, uh, of course, uh, if we 14:13 talk about the economy, uh, we will 14:15 look at it from various perspectives, 14:17 right. For example, how the government 14:22 can, uh, provide a, uh, situation where 14:24 the public can work well, can provide a 14:27 situation where investment comes in, 14:30 including using the resources managed 14:32 by the state through the government, 14:35 especially the state budget, to be 14:37 truly used for the greatest prosperity 14:39 of the people. Now, before that happens 14:44 , I think we must understand the 14:47 context of what problems are being 14:49 faced, especially the economy. If we 14:52 look at many surveys, it turns out that 14:54 economic problems are the primary 14:56 issues, followed by political, social, 14:59 and other matters, because they concern 15:01 the basic needs of many people. Now, 15:05 one of the things being touted, let's 15:08 say, as "the way out" for us to grow 15:12 prosperously toward achieving the 2045 15:15 vision is how we can develop industry 15:18 as a path for the entire community—a 15:22 way out, so to speak—so that economic 15:25 growth can be more sustainable, jobs 15:29 are created, and of course, added value 15:33 can be achieved. So, I will try to 15:37 address that perspective and touch upon 15:40 several things that could be a way out 15:42 for how we can increase people's income 15:45 , certainly through several 15:47 perspectives that I will present later. 15:51 Okay. May I present a PPT, perhaps? 15:58 Is it possible, Sir? Please go ahead. 16:00 It's a bit tight, just 15 or 20 minutes 16:01 , right. But 16:03 eh, okay, I can share my screen, right? 16:05 It is still disabled. 16:12 Is it working yet? 16:14 Not yet? 16:22 Could the host team please help? It's 16:24 already working, Sir. Still not yet, 16:31 right. Or, I don't know if I can just 16:33 talk instead. Okay. Eh okay. If okay, 16:44 if it really isn't possible, okay, I 16:47 will just say that if we look at the 16:49 last 20 years, if we look at the 16:51 progress, actually from the economic 16:54 side, we have experienced a structural 16:56 transformation that is extraordinary, 16:59 which is indicated by several things. 17:04 First, indeed, the growth, even 17:07 economic growth in the last 15 years, 17:10 has been increasingly declining. So, if 17:16 we look, we used to be able to reach, 17:20 back in 2004, 2005, economic growth 17:24 could be better, reaching 7-8%, 7%, 17:27 like that. However, now it is quite 17:31 difficult to reach 6%. Even in the last 17:34 5 years, it seems we have only been 17:36 hovering around 5%or 5.something%. Now, 17:41 and with that situation, indeed 17:43 unemployment tends to go down, poverty 17:46 tends to go down, but what is 17:49 interesting is that inequality is 17:51 getting higher. So, it is interesting 17:56 that not all indicators of economic 17:59 development show the quality that is 18:01 happening, even though there have been 18:04 improvements, let's say, in terms of 18:07 falling unemployment and poverty. 18:11 Although if we look at it compared to 18:13 other countries, our numbers, for 18:15 instance, are still higher. Let's say 18:18 the unemployment rate just released at 18:20 6.45%, I think that is still higher 18:23 compared to several other ASEAN 18:25 countries. 18:26 It has started, I can share the 18:27 presentation. 18:28 Okay, yes. Okay, go ahead, yes. Okay. 18:31 Eh, now, it's already here, yes. 18:35 Yes, you can just full screen it. Okay. 18:38 So, this is what I was saying, that we 18:41 are indeed experiencing a bit of 18:43 economic stagnation. Later, I will 18:46 explain why we have been stuck at the 5 18:48 %mark for, let's say, the last 10 years 18:50 . So, this transformation is 18:53 interesting because it's quite 18:55 difficult for us to break out in the 18:57 long term to reach 6 to 7%. As stated 19:02 by the government regarding our 2045 19:04 vision, if we look at it, it is very 19:06 unlikely to happen because the 19:07 assumptions are different. The 19:10 assumption is economic growth of 6 to 7 19:13 %, but as I’ve noted—and it's not 19:16 just my take—our long-term growth is 19:19 hard to achieve, and according to OECD 19:22 data, our long-term economic growth 19:25 could even be below 5%or 4%. This is 19:29 what I think has become a problem in 19:32 our economy. Why is this happening? One 19:35 reason is that our economic structure 19:39 has undergone extraordinary changes, 19:42 where the service-based economy has 19:44 become the engine, while industry is 19:47 declining and agriculture is relatively 19:51 stagnant. However, the reality is that 19:56 while the workforce in services is 19:58 increasing, the workforce in industry 20:01 is somewhat stable, but its share of 20:04 GDP is declining, meaning its 20:06 value-added is decreasing in this 20:09 respect. Now, this is what I believe 20:13 has caused the industry, which was 20:15 expected to be larger and support the 20:17 service sector, to fail to materialize, 20:19 and this is an extraordinary leap. We 20:23 are moving too quickly into the service 20:26 sector, while the base sectors are 20:28 relatively unsupported. In developed 20:31 countries, even though services 20:33 increase, agriculture remains strong 20:35 and industry remains robust as well. 20:38 The trend, in my opinion, is not very 20:40 good. Industry should be able to keep 20:42 pace with the service sector. Second, I 20:46 think the challenge is that our trade 20:50 has begun to shift; whereas America and 20:53 Japan used to be the centers of trade, 20:57 they no longer are. Our entire trading 21:02 system has already shifted toward China 21:05 . It’s not just us, but all countries 21:09 have seen the center of trade and 21:12 value-added shift, and in the long term 21:16 , this is something to be wary of 21:19 because when one country dominates as a 21:22 trading partner, we lack alternative 21:26 market options or better economic 21:29 value-added options for the future. 21:33 This is what I think is the challenge. 21:36 An economic structure that depends on a 21:38 single country has its positives, but 21:40 the negatives are also quite crucial. 21:44 And domestically, a structural change 21:46 is indeed taking place. If earlier I 21:49 mentioned the world economic power 21:51 shifting with China as the champion, 21:53 that has already happened. Domestically 21:57 , the movement shows Java's share 21:58 beginning to decline over the last 20 22:00 years; it used to be 58.6%of GDP. 58.69 22:05 %. In 2020, it was 58.5%, but the 22:09 movement is shifting toward Sumatra. So 22:13 , what is actually increasing is, sorry 22:16 , in the Sulawesi region there is an 22:19 increase, but in Sumatra it has shifted 22:22 slightly, and Kalimantan has also 22:25 shifted. Regions that are based on 22:29 natural resources, especially 22:30 Kalimantan and Sumatra with plantation 22:32 yields, are actually not performing 22:34 well in terms of momentum. They should 22:38 be the ones that have large natural 22:39 resources and rely on high land 22:40 resources. This is interesting because 22:44 it turns out that resources are not 22:47 promising enough, as one factor is that 22:50 commodity prices affect the economies 22:53 of those countries or regions. Like 22:55 that. Now, another thing that I think 22:59 is a structural change to watch out for 23:02 in the future is that our source of 23:04 economic growth is highly dependent on 23:06 labor productivity. Now, this labor 23:10 productivity will greatly disrupt the 23:12 long-term growth rate. Ideally, capital 23:17 productivity and technology should 23:19 increase in line with labor 23:21 productivity in an ideal way. If we 23:25 look at the data in the left image, we 23:28 are not even very good at both IT 23:30 capital and non-IT capital. Like that. 23:35 Compare that with the Philippines, 23:36 which has good movement in both capital 23:38 productivity and total factor 23:40 productivity. Yes, I think this is the 23:44 basis for why the Philippines 'growth 23:46 in recent years has been much better 23:47 than ours. Because they are seriously 23:51 concerned with developing technology 23:53 and capital productivity rather than 23:56 just labor. Like that. Now, this is 23:58 what I think is a serious threat. I 24:02 think I would dare to say that 2045 is 24:04 something very unlikely to happen. If 24:07 OECD results say—and this is data, 24:10 not just projections—our growth is 24:12 increasingly declining. Countries 24:16 around the world are also declining 24:18 because their economic capacity is 24:20 increasingly limited, and their 24:21 potential real GDP growth is decreasing 24:24 in the long term. So, if we are heading 24:28 toward the 2045 Indonesia Vision with a 24:30 situation where the sources of growth 24:32 follow such a model, it will be very 24:34 difficult. I think this is, comparably 24:38 speaking, quite difficult for us if 24:41 there are no fundamental changes. Now, 24:46 in the TOR, it also shows how the 24:49 industrial sector is experiencing a 24:51 decline in its role, with only food and 24:54 beverage-based industries surviving or 24:57 performing better due to basic needs, 24:59 but others are on a downward trend. Why 25:04 is that? Because the investment coming 25:07 in, if we look at it, is not enough to 25:09 drive industrial growth. The trend 25:12 tends to be—what should I say? 25:16 Industrial growth is lower compared to 25:18 the investment coming in. Now, I think 25:20 this is a note to consider. Whereas in 25:24 structural transformation, industry 25:26 should have been able to keep up with 25:29 the rapid shift to the service sector. 25:33 And investment is also flowing into the 25:35 service sector. This is what I think is 25:37 hard to avoid. Why? There are two 25:39 things. First, we have a large 25:41 population. A large population needs 25:44 what? High consumption. High 25:47 consumption makes this a market for 25:49 other countries to build factories here 25:52 and market products that are not, uh, 25:54 our own, so to speak. Now, this is what 25:57 ultimately causes the service sector to 25:59 grow, for example, for, uh, what? 26:02 Telecommunication services, education 26:04 services, and other social services are 26:06 growing. This, I think, is something 26:09 that is difficult to avoid if we don't 26:12 have a fortress, don't have a proper 26:14 industrialization strategy in place. 26:17 Like that. Whereas if we look at it, 26:21 it's almost relevant that, uh, between 26:24 economy and industry there is a 26:26 connection. If our industry is weak, uh 26:29 , economic growth is also weak. Now, 26:32 this is what ultimately affects our 26:34 long-term growth; our economy struggles 26:35 to reach its maximum potential. 26:38 And it's also visible from our export 26:40 side when compared to Vietnam. 26:43 We are still, uh, still happy with CPO, 26:46 still happy with some rubber products 26:49 and so on, paper. Meanwhile, Vietnam 26:53 already has phones, smart cards, and so 26:55 on. So, the dominance of these 26:58 countries has shifted away from relying 27:00 on natural resources. Because why? Well 27:02 , if you use natural resources, what is 27:05 the added value? It is not as 27:07 profitable as some export products 27:10 based on high added value like 27:12 electronic products and so on. Like 27:15 that. Thailand's dominance is also no 27:17 longer there, right? They are already 27:20 into computers, data, storage units, 27:23 and even lights. We are still into CPO, 27:27 coal, and now nickel. I think this is 27:30 indeed a gift from God, but I think in 27:32 the long term, it will one day run out, 27:34 which is very sensitive. Now, I think 27:38 this is an important note. Even 27:40 compared to the Philippines, we are far 27:43 behind; they are no longer based on 27:45 natural resources. Now, this is what I 27:49 think about the dominance of natural 27:52 resources; it is true that if I'm asked 27:54 if it's a curse, it could be if we 27:57 cannot develop those natural resources 28:00 and their downstreaming. Meanwhile, 28:04 it's difficult for us to downstream if 28:06 we don't build the technology, and 28:08 don't build the industry. We are happy 28:13 exporting CPO, happy with coal, happy 28:16 exporting ferronickel, but we don't 28:18 think about industrialization. Now, I 28:23 think this will become a problem in the 28:26 future, and ultimately, economic growth 28:28 in the industrial sector itself is very 28:31 difficult if the average trend is still 28:34 below 5%, or even 4%. Lastly, in 2020, 28:37 even that fell due to the pandemic. But 28:41 I think this becomes a problem when the 28:44 industry cannot grow higher. And even 28:47 during the pandemic, the industries 28:50 that grew high were due to the push of, 28:54 uh, what? Government facilitation. 28:56 Transportation equipment is there 28:58 because of facilitation, uh, what? 29:00 Exemption from luxury goods sales tax ( 29:02 PPNBM), like that. Well, 29:04 pharmaceuticals grew highly during the 29:07 pandemic, including base metals, 29:09 because they started building while 29:11 others, I think, could not last very 29:13 long during the pandemic. Now, I think 29:17 there are a number of important things 29:21 I have mentioned on many occasions, 29:24 that our R&D is very weak. According to 29:28 World Bank data up to 2018, we were at 29:31 the very lowest compared to other 29:33 countries, at 0.2%based on World Bank 29:36 data. Look at China, starting in '96 it 29:40 was 0.5%. But in a period of, let's say 29:46 , almost more than 12, sorry, nearly 20 29:50 years, it was able to approach the 2.1% 29:53 figure. And that growth is 29:58 extraordinary; among countries, China 30:01 is more dominant even compared to Japan 30:04 or America itself. Even though their 30:08 GDP was already high, China's 30:09 acceleration was far superior, and it 30:12 was finally proven they could dominate 30:14 the world market. That’s how it is 30:17 for us; imagine the 2019 budget, our 30:20 actual R&D budget—this is BAPPENAS 30:22 data—was 5.4 trillion, very small. 30:27 The Ministry of Industry's budget for R 30:29 &D was 20 billion, extremely small. Now 30:32 , even the Ministry of Industry's 2021 30:34 budget is around 2 trillion. So, what 30:37 can we talk about if the budget support 30:39 does not mutually support our goals? 30:43 And, well, indeed the largest, what you 30:45 might call, research and design is 30:48 actually in the food and agriculture 30:50 sector, right? The very things for the 30:54 future, for example, dominating the 30:56 world, are not supported by large 30:58 budget allocations. I think the key 31:01 here is that there must be alignment 31:03 from many parties, including the 31:04 government. How can this become big? I 31:08 am not convinced that even with BRIN 31:10 this will be better, because this is a 31:12 matter of political will. Budgeting is 31:16 not easy, yes. We know that no matter 31:19 how big the budget is, the budget for 31:22 defense and the budget for the police 31:24 remain the highest in any situation, 31:26 compared to the budget to actually 31:28 build our economy for the future. And 31:33 the second is how we can create and 31:35 choose future industries with high 31:37 added value, rather than the industries 31:39 that I think are currently the base and 31:42 will be the source of potential for the 31:44 economy or for the prosperity of the 31:47 people in the world market. That must 31:50 be changed. We currently have a surplus 31:53 , but it is because CPO prices are up 31:55 and coal prices are up; we must change 31:58 it so it is not because we are 32:00 benefiting from prices, but because we 32:02 have products with high added value for 32:05 our export base. The third, of course, 32:08 is that we must change our global value 32:10 chain approach. So we change; we know 32:13 that China—well, China, America, and 32:15 Germany—are the centers of the global 32:17 chain. We should indeed be a part of it 32:21 , but not just as a market country, but 32:24 also as a supplier to other countries, 32:26 and no longer dependent on just one 32:28 country. Well, I think this is the key; 32:34 we should no longer just play on the 32:37 production side, because production has 32:40 lower added value compared to R&D, 32:43 design, marketing, and services, which 32:47 offer the highest added value for 32:50 public prosperity. So, don't be proud 32:54 just because there are many factories 32:56 in Indonesia and a large workforce, if 32:57 the big money isn't staying here. The 33:00 money goes to those who own it, those 33:01 who own the designs. I think that is 33:03 what's important. So, the takeaway is 33:06 that it's not enough just to build 33:08 factories if we don't possess the R&D. 33:12 And I think it's an important note that 33:14 we have these Special Economic Zones, 33:17 or KEKs, and I believe not many of 33:19 these KEKs can be considered successful 33:22 yet. The ones we've been dreaming of 33:27 for so long are still limited to only a 33:30 few companies and are not yet numerous. 33:33 Even though the plans are grand, the 33:35 effectiveness is low. Why? Because, if 33:38 you calculate the costs, it's often 33:41 better to be outside of an industrial 33:43 zone than inside one. Even though it's 33:46 less organized, the calculated costs 33:48 are cheaper. This is what causes the 33:51 Special Economic Zones to be not very 33:54 effective, because the costs turn out 33:56 to be the same despite the incentives 33:58 provided by the government. Lastly, I 34:02 think improving the investment climate 34:05 is crucial. But if we look at the trend 34:11 regarding FDI regulatory restrictions, 34:16 we haven't really moved. China's 34:21 dropped; they've gone down drastically. 34:23 They have made many changes. Vietnam's 34:26 ranking is even better, while Indonesia 34:28 has barely moved at all. This is what I 34:32 think is a note to consider, and the 34:35 reason we aren't seeing much movement 34:38 isn't just because of the laws, but 34:41 because of the implementation on the 34:45 ground, which is where the problem lies 34:48 . Most of it is indeed related to the 34:52 construction sector, machinery, 34:53 equipment, and so on. I think this 34:56 deserves special attention. That is all 35:00 , Mas Haldi, a few things of a macro 35:02 nature. I hope this isn't too general, 35:07 but I believe the other speakers can 35:10 sharpen what I've presented to open the 35:13 discussion. Thank you. Peace be upon 35:16 you and Allah's mercy and blessings. 35:17 Peace be upon you and Allah's mercy and 35:18 blessings. Before we go to the Governor 35:21 , there is one question for you, Mr. 35:24 Tauhid. How can we ensure that economic 35:28 policy has a direct impact on 35:31 increasing people's income? Especially 35:37 for the people in general, right? Right 35:41 . One of the economic parameters, aside 35:44 from growth, is also about poverty 35:46 alleviation and inequality, sir. 35:50 Yes, I think there are many ways, 35:52 actually. First, there is an instrument 35:55 that we manage directly, which is the 35:58 State Budget (APBN). So, how the APBN 36:02 is used as it should be for the welfare 36:04 of the people. Of course, referring to 36:08 two approaches, yes. An expansive 36:11 approach: how fiscal expansion can be 36:14 carried out, uh, with a higher 36:16 proportion of capital expenditure, 36:19 better transfers to the regions, and 36:21 the utilization of program schemes that 36:24 truly touch upon, uh, the economic 36:27 sustainability of the lower-middle 36:29 class. In, uh, fiscal terms, in revenue 36:33 , in taxes, we must also look at, uh, 36:35 who should be, uh, taxed so that it 36:38 does not burden the public, the 36:40 community. So this is key, for example, 36:43 through, uh, the state budget and 36:45 non-state budget sources, I think it is 36:48 also important, for instance, in 36:50 relation to, uh, how investment can 36:52 enter Indonesia in a larger way. Uh, 36:56 can we indeed direct it to locations 36:59 that have, uh, until now been less 37:01 fortunate or, let's say, lack, uh, 37:04 resources. So it can be directed to 37:08 those locations, for example, whether 37:11 outside of Java in certain regions that 37:13 , uh, allow more people to be involved 37:15 and use more, uh, labor. But apart from 37:20 that, it is about, uh, how the private 37:22 sector's role can also be increased 37:24 because if we look at relying on the 37:27 government, our GDP structure, uh, the 37:29 government's contribution is only about 37:32 , uh, 8%. Export-import is plus or 37:36 minus 4%. So, uh, the dominant factor 37:39 is consumption. Well, consumption 37:41 happens if jobs are created. So, it is 37:44 those jobs that I think should be, uh, 37:46 created by the government. Whether it's 37:50 , uh, the investment climate through 37:53 labor-intensive government budgets or, 37:55 as mentioned, creating, let's say, 37:57 macro stability and prices that are, uh 38:00 , good for the public. Yes, now for 38:04 example, if the price of cooking oil 38:07 cannot be controlled, automatically 38:09 public prosperity drops, purchasing 38:11 power drops; how that is controlled is 38:13 already doing something for the public. 38:18 Alright, thank you Mr. Taufik for, uh, 38:21 the explanation. This is our 38:24 enlightenment from an economic 38:26 perspective, and now we move directly 38:28 to the Governor of NTB, Dr. 38:30 Zulkiflimansyah. Assalamu alaikum, 38:33 Governor. Are you able to join us yet? 38:39 Assalamu alaikum, Governor. Oh, right. 38:46 It turns out, uh, he is still unable to 38:50 join. Alright, now we go to Mr. Zenzi. 38:54 Mr. Zen. Assalamu alaikum, Mr. Zen. 38:59 Waalaikumsalam warahmatullahi 39:01 wabarakatuh. Yes. Alright, Mr. Zenzi. 39:05 Uh, now we want to hear from an 39:08 environmental perspective as well, and 39:11 how these government policies and the 39:14 state can truly bring about prosperity 39:17 and improve, uh, the lives and income 39:20 of the people. Mr. Zenzi, the floor is 39:23 yours, sir. 39:25 Yes. Should I, uh, share my screen or 39:28 not? 39:28 Please, feel free. Yes, uh, it's still 39:36 disabled, uh. 39:38 Oh. 39:38 Yes, I, uh. 39:41 Oh, it is already. 39:42 It will be a lot, yeah. Okay. 39:49 It's already, it's working, sir. 39:52 Okay. 39:58 Yes. Uh, I, uh, will only speak about 40:01 the economy that is, uh, relevant for 40:04 WALHI to discuss because we are also 40:07 not, uh, economists. 40:11 Well, I won't talk about income, but 40:14 rather about, uh, welfare. Because 40:18 these are two different things in our 40:20 view, uh, between communities in rural 40:25 areas and communities in, uh, cities. 40:29 In the city, uh, income is the source 40:31 of income, so it's the, uh, input for 40:34 their welfare. Whereas in, uh, rural 40:38 areas or regions, uh, income, 40:41 economically speaking, might only be 40 40:45 %of, uh, the input to their welfare. Oh 40:53 , this isn't working, is it? 40:56 It's done, sir. 40:56 Uh, it cannot run, this thing. Uh, 41:07 ah, 41:08 or record it first. Saknan. 41:14 Now, try repeating it again, sir. 41:17 Okay, it works. Okay. 41:18 Very well. Uh, we are trying to compare 41:23 the global economic system that is 41:26 currently running in Indonesia with the 41:29 , uh, economic system, uh, operating at 41:32 the community level, where WALUI has 41:35 been working in 28 provinces. Uh, there 41:39 is an economic system running in the 41:42 community where, uh, it can be clearly 41:45 seen in the economic production process 41:48 how much input comes from the 41:51 environment and, uh, how much 41:53 production comes from, uh, labor, and 41:56 in terms of welfare, how much input 41:59 comes from economic production, and 42:01 then, uh, how much input comes from, uh 42:04 , the environment. Simply put, uh, 42:08 between urban communities and rural 42:10 communities, someone in the city might 42:13 earn 10 million, while in the village 42:16 the, uh, economic income is 3 million; 42:18 it could be that the one in the village 42:21 is actually more prosperous. Because 42:24 their other needs in the form of, uh, 42:28 food, uh, shelter, and, uh, the 42:30 environment are provided by nature. The 42:38 economy that, uh, we are delving into, 42:42 which we call the Nusantara economy, is 42:45 born from the human process of adapting 42:49 to nature, not an economy grown through 42:52 the process of modifying or exploiting 42:56 nature. These are two different 42:59 economies. Uh, an economy that modifies 43:02 nature or exploits nature will directly 43:05 create, uh, environmental burdens and 43:08 economic burdens for both the community 43:11 and, uh, the state. which is 43:16 whereas 43:18 the Nusantara economy that we are 43:20 promoting is an economy that, uh, grows 43:23 , uh, through a process of adaptation 43:26 to nature so that there is no burden, 43:28 uh, created. This economy, uh, 43:31 conserves, uh, water, keeps water on 43:34 land longer, and does not cause 43:36 ecological disasters. Uh, water and 43:39 fire are positioned as part of the 43:41 means of production, uh, and friends. 43:45 And these two, in an economy that 43:48 modifies nature, both become disasters, 43:51 uh, because of their use in an, uh, 43:54 uncontrolled space. Uh, during the 43:57 summer, we are always faced with forest 44:00 fires and smoke in Sumatra and 44:02 Kalimantan. Uh, during the dry season, 44:06 uh, during the rainy season, we are 44:08 faced with, uh, flash floods and, uh, 44:10 prolonged flooding like in Sintang 44:12 right now. An ecosystem-based economy 44:16 is key to food sovereignty and the, uh, 44:18 sustainability of the earth. Humans in 44:22 the archipelago have lived here for 44:23 thousands of years. uh, but left behind 44:26 clear forests and rivers for us. But 44:30 the economic system built in Indonesia 44:32 over the last few decades has not yet 44:35 shown a direct increase in prosperity 44:37 for the people of the archipelago, but 44:40 it has imposed a very heavy 44:42 environmental burden. Cultural 44:45 diversity is tied to the diversity of 44:48 ecosystems in Indonesia. Now, I want to 44:53 remind us of the year '98 when a 44:57 political crisis, environmental crisis, 45:01 and economic crisis struck Indonesia. 45:04 One of the economic foundations in 45:08 Indonesia, especially in the regions, 45:11 is the agricultural, plantation, and 45:14 forestry sector managed by the 45:17 community, where exports contribute to 45:20 balancing the dollar and rupiah, and 45:23 become the foundation for rural life, 45:26 so it didn't collapse, unlike the urban 45:30 society that experienced a crisis from 45:33 '98 to '99. Now, there is a major piece 45:36 of homework in...The plan for the 45:41 expansion of exploitation sectors in 45:44 Indonesia for forest concessions (HPH) 45:48 has a target of 26 million hectares by 45:51 2025. Industrial forest plantations ( 45:54 HTI) amount to 12.5 million hectares. 45:57 Palm oil spans 26.3 million hectares. 46:00 Meanwhile, mining covers 3.2 million 46:02 hectares. We see that the land in 46:06 Indonesia managed by farmers or 46:09 communities versus the land managed by 46:13 large corporations provides different 46:17 economic impacts. If Indonesian land is 46:23 managed by communities or farmers, 46:26 every gram of its exports brings money 46:29 directly to the villages where the 46:32 commodities are cultivated, thus 46:35 contributing directly to income, 46:38 welfare, and the economic supply chain 46:41 in the regions. Meanwhile, when this 46:47 land and forest is transferred to 46:50 corporate control—and that has now 46:53 reached 56 million hectares—what 46:55 enters the villages is only capital 46:58 expenditure when the plantations are 47:01 opened. The second is operational costs 47:06 for workers. Whereas the benefits from 47:12 each of these sectors flow to the 47:15 shareholders. And most industries in 47:21 this sector, in Indonesia's natural 47:23 resources sector, even if the companies 47:27 are based in Indonesia, the 47:29 shareholders or parent companies are 47:32 located abroad. Like palm oil, most of 47:37 it comes from Malaysia, Singapore, 47:40 Europe, Japan, and the US. This should 47:47 be corrected by the government, how 47:50 much the economic contribution from 47:53 each of these sectors to the national 47:56 economy actually is. Does the increase 48:02 in state revenue from taxes, land taxes 48:05 , or export taxes from these sectors 48:07 correlate directly with the national 48:10 economy, in the sense of an economy 48:13 that grows in the regions? This could 48:17 be the answer to what was mentioned 48:21 earlier by Mas Sahib regarding several 48:25 sectors in Indonesia, and those sectors 48:30 managed directly by the community are 48:34 generally spices, in Sumatra, Java, 48:40 Maluku, Sulawesi, and the eastern 48:42 regions. Uh, this is an economy that 48:46 grew from the pre-colonial era, the 48:48 colonial era, up until, uh, the present 48:51 . Now, this is an overview, uh, of 48:57 Indonesia's 192 million hectares of 48:59 land. Uh, this is the area controlled 49:03 by, uh, the forestry sector, uh, timber 49:05 concessions, industrial forest 49:07 plantations, and, uh, so on. Uh, this 49:11 is what is controlled by mining, and, 49:13 uh, this is what is controlled by the, 49:15 uh, plantation sector generally, uh, 49:17 today. Now, uh, for all three of these 49:23 sectors, even if the companies are 49:26 Indonesia-based, the, uh, beneficiary 49:28 owners are located outside. Not to 49:33 mention if we look deeper, uh, at the 49:36 phenomenon of many companies in 49:38 Indonesia being affiliated with, uh, 49:41 shell companies in, uh, tax haven 49:44 countries. Now, if we were to calculate 49:48 the state revenue against the state's 49:50 burden in dealing with, uh, 49:52 environmental damage and the ecological 49:54 disasters that occur, uh, the, uh, 49:59 balance sheet of Indonesia's natural 50:01 resources and economic flow, 50:02 Indonesia's economic growth, should 50:04 actually be more corrected. Now, I want 50:12 to zoom in on the economic growth that 50:15 the state is trying to build from the 50:18 natural resource sector in those three 50:21 areas: forests, mining, uh, and, uh, 50:24 plantations. Uh, this is an economy 50:29 that grew, uh, not from scratch, but it 50:32 is an economy that grew by correcting 50:35 or destroying the economy that already 50:39 existed. Meaning, uh, the economy that 50:43 grew here, uh, was not without 50:45 destroying, uh, other economic systems. 50:50 Uh, I’ll take one example, uh, 50:52 Indonesia is one of the countries that 50:55 has, uh, the largest peat ecosystems in 50:57 the world. And all this time, these 51:01 peat ecosystem areas, which are aquatic 51:04 ecosystem areas, have been designated 51:06 for, uh, palm oil and acacia because 51:09 they are considered unproductive. Now, 51:13 when these water-based areas are forced 51:16 into, uh, land cultivation, in this 51:18 case, plantations, then, uh, the 51:21 consequence is that this area must be 51:24 drained. Now, all this time, the public 51:28 and government perspective has only 51:30 seen the consequences of the fires that 51:33 occur, but they do not see that when an 51:36 area is drained, uh, there is, uh, 51:39 water diversion to other places. As for 51:42 the one on the right, uh, this is not a 51:44 village on a lake. This is a village 51:48 abandoned by the community after being 51:50 submerged because, uh, the company, uh, 51:53 diverted water from its plantation area 51:56 to somewhere else, and these villages 51:58 became submerged. Previously, this was 52:03 a village, uh, on land and, uh, was a, 52:06 uh, major food producer in, uh, South 52:09 Sumatra, and now it has become, uh, 52:11 crippled. Uh the second one is still 52:18 from the aquatic ecosystem. Uh, if we 52:21 look at the image here, we are trying 52:24 to compare the economic value when the 52:27 peat ecosystem is left, uh, as a forest 52:30 , uh, versus when the peat ecosystem is 52:33 drained and, uh, a palm oil plantation 52:37 is built there, which actually, uh, 52:39 provides greater economic income. Well, 52:44 we studied a sample of 10,000 hectares 52:48 in Ogan Komering Ilir and found 78 52:52 types of livelihoods. These 78 types of 52:58 livelihoods generate an economic value 53:01 of 441 billion per year. However, 53:07 across Indonesia, these peatlands have 53:11 been viewed as unproductive because 53:14 these 78 livelihoods and 441 billion 53:18 per year are not included in national 53:22 economic or financial statistics. 53:30 Meanwhile, if it is converted into a 53:33 10,000-hectare palm oil plantation, its 53:36 economic value is around 220 billion. 53:40 And the money that circulates here is 53:42 only for capital expenditure and 53:44 operations. Whereas the benefits from 53:50 production every year flow to the 53:54 parent company. Some flow back to the 54:00 source of the loans or capital, in the 54:04 form of banks or shareholders from 54:08 Europe, Malaysia, Japan, or America. Or 54:18 it flows to urban areas in the form of 54:21 property, by the economic players 54:25 involved in palm oil, mining, and 54:28 industrial forest plantations. So, the 54:36 money is rotated to urban areas, 54:38 building new housing clusters and 54:41 properties, so the environmental burden 54:44 —fires, floods, and so on—is not 54:47 proportional to the economic growth 54:50 because the benefits are taken 54:53 elsewhere. I want to give a quick 55:01 example, just one more thing, sir. 55:05 Hopefully, the presentation will work. 55:08 Oh, was it cut off just now? 55:10 Yes. Oh, 55:11 okay. I thought it had already loaded. 55:15 Okay, let me try sharing it again. Has 55:26 it come through? 55:26 Yes. Okay, sorry. Now, these are the 55:31 regions that are from each sector, 55:36 controlled by corporations in Indonesia 55:38 , where the shareholders or lenders are 55:41 based abroad. Currently, 56 million 55:44 hectares of Indonesian land are 55:46 controlled by corporations. It has 55:50 shifted from an economic system owned 55:52 by the people to the corporations I 55:55 mentioned earlier. If those were the 55:58 figures, I'll show you the regions: 56:01 here is the forestry sector, including 56:03 logging concessions and industrial 56:05 plantations. This part is plantations, 56:09 and this part is mining. Looking at 56:13 this map, it’s understandable why 56:15 Indonesia is seeing more of this lately 56:18 . During the rainy season, there are 56:20 floods. During the dry season, we have 56:23 fires. This is what I meant, when an 56:30 area is drained, there are villages 56:32 that get submerged. These are villages 56:36 that used to be the base for food or 56:38 rice production in South Sumatra. They 56:42 become submerged and are abandoned. 56:46 These were the 78 types of livelihoods 56:49 in the peat system, and this is, what 56:52 do you call it? the ecosystem chain 56:57 that is destroyed when peat is drained. 57:02 That is my introduction. 57:05 Yes. So, the point is how the state's 57:08 economic policy truly touches the daily 57:11 lives of the people, sir. Not just 57:14 keeping the economy revolving in the 57:16 hands of our capitalists. 57:20 Our economic policy doesn't touch, but 57:22 rather tramples on and destroys the 57:25 economic systems that were already 57:27 growing in regions that, without state 57:29 intervention, were already thriving. 57:33 But it is precisely the state's 57:34 intervention that destroys them. When 57:37 56 million hectares of land are handed 57:40 over to companies, the people's economy 57:42 on that 56 million hectares disappears. 57:47 Because all that time, those 56 million 57:48 hectares were productive. When it 57:51 shifts to corporations, the people's 57:54 economy in our surroundings collapses. 57:58 It's gone. The issue isn't just about 58:02 people becoming poor, but it relates to 58:05 how the circulation of money in those 58:08 regions or in Indonesia changes. That 58:12 is what I mean. 58:15 Right. Thank you, Mr. Zensi. This is 58:19 very interesting so that it can get the 58:23 attention of policymakers, on how 58:26 government policies can side with the 58:29 general public, not just corporations, 58:33 capital owners, and capitalists. All 58:38 right, can Mr. Agub join us now, Mr. 58:41 Zulkiflimansyah? I received info that 58:46 he is currently on the road. His signal 58:49 is a bit difficult. Mr. Gup, can you 58:52 join us now? Alright, now we go to Bung 58:59 Rocky. Bung Rocky? Can you join us now, 59:04 Bung Rocky? 59:06 Okay. 59:08 Fine. 59:10 I am also quite far away. I am 59:11 currently in Gorontalo. So hopefully 59:14 the signal is strong. 59:15 Yes. Yes. 59:18 Okay. What is my problem? 59:20 Yes? How can this country truly serve 59:23 the people, increase the people's 59:26 income, Bung Rocky, instead of just 59:29 circulating among the elites who enjoy 59:32 it? 59:34 This is what we always call a paradigm 59:36 shift. At the very least, there should 59:40 be a new concept proposed or offered by 59:41 whom? Yes, certainly by the opposition, 59:44 right? We cannot ask the state to 59:46 produce a new concept. It has stopped 59:50 at the issues explained earlier by the 59:52 others, by INDEF. So let's imagine that 59:59 our constitution mandates, not just 1:00:04 indicates, it mandates wealth 1:00:07 distribution, especially welfare 1:00:10 distribution, to be carried out by the 1:00:13 state. There is a corporate function. 1:00:16 The function of a corporation is to 1:00:17 accumulate. Indeed, the task of a 1:00:21 corporation is to accumulate, but it is 1:00:24 the duty of the state to ensure 1:00:26 distribution. Those are two capacities 1:00:30 that are actually mismanaged by the 1:00:35 current government, so the state 1:00:38 actually acts as an accumulator as well 1:00:43 through state-owned enterprises (BUMN). 1:00:45 Isn't that strange? BUMN are told to be 1:00:47 accumulators. The function of BUMN is 1:00:49 to carry out distribution; that is our 1:00:51 constitutional mandate. Meanwhile, 1:00:54 cooperatives, which should be the 1:00:56 backbone of the grassroots community in 1:00:58 efforts to maintain a subsistence 1:01:00 economy, truly need a safety net 1:01:03 through these cooperatives. 1:01:05 Cooperatives are instead being preyed 1:01:07 upon by state-owned enterprises and 1:01:09 corporations. And that is where the 1:01:12 ideological issue lies. Now, if we 1:01:15 understand that, we naturally think 1:01:17 that something has been messed up from 1:01:19 the start. If it was messed up from the 1:01:22 start, with an opposition, the 1:01:23 government should have fallen so that 1:01:25 an opposition could reset our economic 1:01:27 system. That is the simple formula, 1:01:31 before we get into the various 1:01:33 technical problems; that is the core of 1:01:35 it. Today, for example, we see that the 1:01:41 whole world is trying to produce a new 1:01:44 line of thinking that is truly 1:01:47 different from what we call the " 1:01:49 accumulator regime," which is a regime 1:01:52 oriented toward growth, growth, growth. 1:01:58 Everyone in the world is talking about 1:02:01 growth, especially with things like 1:02:04 cryptocurrencies, the green economy, 1:02:07 and so on. This has created 1:02:10 opportunities for people to revive the 1:02:12 principle of human solidarity, 1:02:14 especially among the younger generation 1:02:16 . The younger generation isn't just 1:02:19 playing with cryptocurrency—where the 1:02:21 "crypto" part is more prevalent than 1:02:23 the "currency" part—but they are also 1:02:25 trying to engage with philosophical 1:02:27 ideas based on social justice. People 1:02:31 are reading again, revisiting Andre 1:02:33 Gorz, looking at the potential of the 1:02:36 green economy to redistribute wealth 1:02:39 due to various crises. So, the 1:02:43 government has no alternatives, and it 1:02:45 isn't allowed to have any because it 1:02:48 has already been mortgaged by the 1:02:50 oligarchy, right? We always want to see 1:02:53 the state's potential to act, but we 1:02:56 can't, because it is structurally 1:02:58 consumed by the oligarchy, so the 1:03:00 exploitation of nature occurs because 1:03:03 of the exploitation of man by man. So 1:03:08 these issues must be clear in our minds 1:03:11 so we don't waste our hopes on 1:03:14 restoring the economy by relying on the 1:03:17 current government. I just read a 1:03:23 report from The Economist—what do you 1:03:26 call it—it's the end of the year, and 1:03:29 The Economist usually creates an 1:03:31 overview of the world ahead for 20... 1:03:38 2022, so what the world looks like in 1:03:42 2022. In the back of the magazine, 1:03:46 there is usually an obituary, a column 1:03:49 about who died, which figures passed 1:03:51 away, or what history should be written 1:03:53 . It has its own editor. This is the 1:03:56 uniqueness of The Economist magazine. 1:03:58 In this year-end edition, the title of 1:04:01 the...obituary—I'm trying to recall 1:04:09 it—was interesting. We want to see 1:04:14 how Indonesia reacts to the way the 1:04:17 world understands the economy after 1:04:19 COVID; the title is "Ashes to Ashes," 1:04:21 from ash to ash. So, the obituary in 1:04:26 The Economist today writes about the 1:04:29 death of the coal industry and energy. 1:04:34 It is then briefly explained how, a 1:04:36 century ago, every corner of London was 1:04:39 covered in black dust. Black. Well, we 1:04:44 aren't talking about that. Earlier, 1:04:46 Wali correctly explained that Indonesia 1:04:49 only likes to boost growth by, as I 1:04:52 often say, digging up our ancestors' 1:04:56 fossils. Then it's sold off, 1:04:59 coincidentally while China's economy is 1:05:02 stalling. Selling off the remains of 1:05:06 our ancestors in the form of coal, the 1:05:08 prices fall or might recover later, but 1:05:11 we can only keep digging, right? Then, 1:05:15 what else? We sell those excavated 1:05:19 goods and climb trees to get palm oil, 1:05:21 then we sell it, right? So, that is 1:05:25 truly an economy provided and pampered 1:05:27 by nature, but it also destroys that 1:05:28 very nature. This is what isn't 1:05:31 happening. Even though people are 1:05:33 talking about Space X, people are 1:05:36 talking about, what's it called? Trade 1:05:40 that is no longer based on consumption, 1:05:43 but on basic needs, like that. Our 1:05:47 thinking doesn't reach that far. 1:05:50 Whereas millennials no longer care 1:05:52 about what is called growth or 1:05:54 measuring the economy with conventional 1:05:56 principles. Now, this is what isn't 1:05:59 taking place. So I don't think there is 1:06:02 anything being thought out by the 1:06:04 government. So our country is truly 1:06:08 being torn apart simply because there 1:06:10 is no concept. That's the point, isn't 1:06:12 it? So once again, every time we talk 1:06:16 about efforts to improve the nation, we 1:06:18 always hit a wall regarding who will 1:06:20 lead. That's the essence of it, right? 1:06:23 So, we put the horse in front first, 1:06:25 then we attach the carriage, so the 1:06:26 horse pulls the carriage. Not putting 1:06:28 the carriage first, then searching for 1:06:30 the horse. If there's no horse, why 1:06:32 would we even have a carriage? That is 1:06:36 essentially what was ridiculously shown 1:06:40 by the Constitutional Court's decision 1:06:43 yesterday morning, that in order to 1:06:46 serve the president's ego, and not to 1:06:49 disturb the oligarchy's agenda. The 1:06:54 Constitutional Court made a ridiculous 1:06:56 decision that the Omnibus Law is 1:06:58 unconstitutional, but it remains a law. 1:07:02 Yesterday I joked that someone was 1:07:04 selling mangoes and the seller said, " 1:07:06 Please, buy this mango, even if it's 1:07:08 rotten." But it's still a mango, you 1:07:09 know. If you want a new one, wait 2 1:07:12 years, I'll plant the new mangoes. And 1:07:14 that is what is happening right now. 1:07:17 Meaning, if we try to look at what is 1:07:19 happening to this nation, what's 1:07:22 happening is a coordination breakdown. 1:07:26 Can that coordination be fixed? It 1:07:27 definitely can. In what way? By 1:07:30 changing the way decisions are made, 1:07:32 right? But the next question is, are 1:07:36 they willing to make decisions? Now, 1:07:39 this 1:07:40 isn't there something that has become 1:07:43 standard in the way the government 1:07:46 makes decisions. 1:07:48 It doesn't consult the House of 1:07:49 Representatives, it consults the 1:07:50 oligarchy. Now, issues like this, if we 1:07:54 measure them against Indonesia's 1:07:56 potential to compete later, it will be 1:07:59 hampered by Indonesia's inability to 1:08:01 read global politics. This is also a 1:08:04 factor right before our eyes. Yes, of 1:08:08 course, America is currently busy 1:08:10 looking for ways to rebuild its 1:08:12 military industry because it has been 1:08:15 left behind by China. Look, China 1:08:17 already has hypersonics. Indonesia—uh 1:08:21 , America is overwhelmed trying to 1:08:24 intercept China's hypersonics, which 1:08:27 can circle the globe and then release 1:08:31 their ballistics. So if we look at it 1:08:36 today, Indonesia's effort to escape its 1:08:38 own middle-income trap is very 1:08:39 difficult. That's first because China's 1:08:43 demand is declining. Second, because 1:08:46 America's military industry is actually 1:08:48 being activated to deter China's 1:08:50 escalation in Taiwan and the South 1:08:52 China Sea. And that means the American 1:08:56 economy will grow in the military 1:08:58 industrial sector; companies like 1:08:59 Lockheed, Northrop will be flooded with 1:09:01 orders from the state again. Now, that 1:09:04 means dollars will be brought back home 1:09:06 again. Joe Biden will surely call the 1:09:09 dollars back to revive an economy that 1:09:11 is truly based on the military industry 1:09:13 . It's complex, yes. These are the 1:09:16 factors that must explain things if we 1:09:18 want to read Indonesia. We cannot read 1:09:21 Indonesia without comparing it to 1:09:22 foreign countries, right? We can look 1:09:25 at all the macro statistics back and 1:09:27 forth, but it's useless. Secondly, all 1:09:31 the preparations to welcome back 1:09:34 capitalism have even been canceled by 1:09:36 the main thinker of capitalism himself. 1:09:40 What is his name? Uh, Klaus Schwab, who 1:09:43 is the CEO of the World Economic Forum 1:09:46 in Davos; so those changes are not 1:09:49 happening here. Now, if we want to 1:09:53 prepare to see how distribution is 1:09:54 returned to the people, we must read 1:09:56 our ability to deal with new ideas in 1:09:58 the world. That is it. Well, we don't 1:10:02 see that. All our talk shows are based 1:10:05 on the premise that even in 1:10:07 environmental matters, the orientation 1:10:09 remains human development, not 1:10:11 environmental protection. What we call 1:10:14 sustainable development remains 1:10:16 sustainable for humans, not for nature. 1:10:19 Now, because of that, the 1:10:21 sustainability of the idea of 1:10:22 sustainable growth is precisely what 1:10:24 must be questioned. So once again, our 1:10:27 mindset is not there. Whereas the 1:10:30 economy will change after COVID. 1:10:33 Everyone in the world is talking about 1:10:36 a new global order post-COVID, and that 1:10:39 battle is also entering new territories 1:10:42 in the world's economic think tanks. 1:10:47 Now, millennials are actually tempted 1:10:49 to talk about that. But in Indonesia, 1:10:52 there is no facility to discuss new 1:10:54 ideas about that distribution. All 1:10:58 ministries are illiterate regarding 1:10:59 those ideas, not because they don't 1:11:01 have ideas, but actually because there 1:11:03 is no trigger for those ideas. Imagine 1:11:06 a cabinet meeting where President 1:11:07 Jokowi speaks. After President Jokowi 1:11:10 speaks, all the ministers WhatsApp each 1:11:12 other, confused about determining what 1:11:14 was actually decided in the meeting 1:11:16 just now, right? Then they mock each 1:11:18 other. So that is the problem, and uh 1:11:25 simply put, there is no visible urgency 1:11:28 from the government to bring people's 1:11:31 ideas from the market into the economic 1:11:34 system that is normatively or even 1:11:37 imperatively demanded by our 1:11:40 constitution. The thing is, if we delve 1:11:45 deeper, we know from the start that 1:11:48 Indonesia's model, even if you want to 1:11:51 call it a compradore model, is still at 1:11:54 work, and primitive accumulation is 1:11:57 still ongoing. Then people are busy 1:12:00 explaining it as an oligarchy. But the 1:12:04 explanation of the oligarchy, what we 1:12:06 call oligarchy, can be explained in the 1:12:08 Weberian sense that within every 1:12:10 organization there is always a small 1:12:12 group that controls the running of the 1:12:14 organization. But we can also explain 1:12:17 it in the Marxian sense that within an 1:12:20 oligarchy there is always a capital 1:12:22 imperative that is exploitative in 1:12:24 nature. But whatever our perspective on 1:12:27 the practice of oligarchy, the 1:12:28 oligarchs are the same people, carrying 1:12:29 over from the New Order, right? So this 1:12:34 evaluation must be comprehensive, that 1:12:36 firstly, we failed to change our 1:12:38 economic structure from one of 1:12:40 accumulation to one of distribution 1:12:43 because we still allowed the old 1:12:45 oligarchy to carry over into the new 1:12:47 system. That is the structural problem. 1:12:51 Secondly, our counter-concepts do not 1:12:53 resonate academically because there are 1:12:56 no ideas to produce those 1:12:57 counter-concepts. So if we say that the 1:13:01 world system is changing and therefore 1:13:03 Indonesia must adapt to it. Then people 1:13:06 ask, what is the new idea for Indonesia 1:13:08 ? What does Indonesia contribute to the 1:13:11 theories or the development of a new 1:13:13 economic paradigm? Nothing. Because we 1:13:16 keep going back to Pancasila economics, 1:13:18 the content of which is unclear. We go 1:13:21 back to Bung Karno's thoughts on, what 1:13:23 do you call it? National self-reliance. 1:13:26 So, BRIN, even with Ibu Megawati as its 1:13:29 head, should be thinking about economic 1:13:31 theory, about that economic paradigm. I 1:13:34 don't know what Ibu Megawati is 1:13:35 thinking about there. Because BRIN is 1:13:38 full of ideology, not methodology. That 1:13:40 is because Ibu Megawati is an ideologue 1:13:42 . So once again, we are truly striving 1:13:46 to produce justice and prosperity. We 1:13:50 believe PKS has ideas about that, but 1:13:52 then it becomes an issue that the idea 1:13:54 of justice and prosperity is based on 1:13:56 Islamic economics. And it is not even 1:14:00 given the opportunity to be tested 1:14:02 academically, that potential. Even 1:14:05 though all over the world, people are 1:14:07 exploring the potential of Islamic 1:14:08 economics to serve as an alternative to 1:14:10 communism, socialism, or capitalism. 1:14:14 Because of sentiment, because of, what 1:14:16 do you call it? The sense of politics 1:14:20 far precedes the sense of methodology 1:14:23 in the effort to find an economic model 1:14:25 based on Islamic teachings, for example 1:14:28 . So once again, we want a forum. Well, 1:14:32 the point is there should be a forum to 1:14:34 debate concepts. But the forum is 1:14:37 controlled by those who do not 1:14:38 understand concepts. BRIN doesn't 1:14:41 understand concepts. So, what is the 1:14:43 point of having BRIN? Whereas we 1:14:45 actually need a think tank that truly 1:14:48 only works to anticipate the world in 1:14:50 the next 2 years. I think that is the 1:14:54 introduction, and for technical matters 1:14:57 , we know that if there is a dispute in 1:14:59 the cabinet, for example between...we 1:15:02 can divide this cabinet into two: the 1:15:04 cabinet that what do you call it, 1:15:08 generates money and the one that spends 1:15:10 money. Those generating money are the 1:15:13 ministries considered capable of 1:15:15 growing the economy. But there are also 1:15:19 ministries whose duty is to receive 1:15:22 that growth. The Social Department 1:15:24 cannot collect money, can it? Its duty 1:15:26 is to distribute the accumulated 1:15:28 results. For example, if a conflict 1:15:32 arises between the Trade Minister and 1:15:35 the Industry Minister, say the Industry 1:15:37 Minister wants exports because 1:15:39 manufacturing should be increased. 1:15:44 Meanwhile, the Trade Minister thinks 1:15:45 why export, when we can just import. 1:15:48 That comparative advantage is more 1:15:50 convenient. Now, if a paradigmatic 1:15:55 dispute occurs between the Trade 1:15:58 Minister, who is import-oriented, and 1:16:02 the Industry Minister, who is 1:16:04 export-oriented, who decides? Certainly 1:16:09 , the Coordinating Minister must decide 1:16:11 . But the Coordinating Minister is a 1:16:13 politician. So they will use their 1:16:16 political yardstick to determine 1:16:18 whether to export or import. Reporting 1:16:21 to the President, the President doesn't 1:16:22 understand such issues. So it seems we 1:16:25 are just trapped there. So, I'm 1:16:27 actually quite happy there is chaos. 1:16:31 Only now do I feel happy every time 1:16:32 there is chaos in the cabinet. 1:16:34 Amputating each other in the cabinet, 1:16:36 canceling each other's policies. The 1:16:38 Constitutional Court creates chaos. I 1:16:40 am happy because it is a sign that the 1:16:42 end game can be accelerated. Therefore, 1:16:45 we are getting ready; if the end game 1:16:48 is accelerated, we will send SWAK to 1:16:50 NTB to be accommodated by the governor 1:16:52 there. 1:16:55 Right, thank you, Bung Rocky. Let's 1:16:57 welcome the Governor of NTB. Peace be 1:17:00 upon you, Bang Zul. Could you unmute 1:17:01 first? 1:17:02 And peace be upon you too. Sorry, I'm 1:17:05 on the road. 1:17:06 Yes, that's fine, Bang. Thank you, Bang 1:17:08 . I'm used to calling you Bang Zul, so 1:17:11 calling you Governor feels different. 1:17:14 Governor, we want to hear stories from 1:17:16 NTB and your concept on how the state 1:17:19 can have a significant role in 1:17:21 improving people's health and income. 1:17:25 How is it, Governor? I'll try, although 1:17:30 I haven't fully followed since the 1:17:32 signal is on and off; the speakers are 1:17:34 very heavy. If I may share the 1:17:41 experience of what we have done. This 1:17:45 theme is a very interesting one. How to 1:17:48 bring prosperity and create an increase 1:17:52 in public income. 1:17:54 Yes. What we are trying to do in NTB 1:17:57 might be too simple or whatever it 1:18:00 seems to you, but we find it 1:18:02 interesting to share with a wider 1:18:05 audience. First, we see that to 1:18:10 increase income and bring prosperity, 1:18:13 there needs to be an increase in 1:18:16 productivity. As the jargon goes, 1:18:21 economic capacity grows larger over 1:18:24 time, or the curve shifts to the right. 1:18:29 And this does require an increase in 1:18:32 added value. For example, previously 1:18:35 only producing corn, now there must be 1:18:38 the courage to process corn into animal 1:18:41 feed, for example. 1:18:43 Yes. 1:18:44 Why is this important? Because as 1:18:46 mentioned by the first speaker, if I'm 1:18:48 not mistaken, there is what is called 1:18:50 the marginal productivity of labor. So, 1:18:54 in the agricultural sector, adding more 1:18:58 workers does not always lead to an 1:19:00 increase in productivity. 1:19:04 One hectare produces 10 tons and 1:19:06 employs 10 people. When there is an 1:19:10 increase in labor because the number of 1:19:13 workers grows, for example, 15 people 1:19:16 working that same hectare, 1:19:19 Hmm. 1:19:20 it doesn't increase beyond 10 tons; it 1:19:22 remains stagnant or even decreases 1:19:23 because there is too much talking going 1:19:24 on. That is roughly the situation from 1:19:26 a 1:19:27 theoretical standpoint. Therefore, land 1:19:30 that should be managed by 10 people but 1:19:33 is now worked by 5 means that, in 1:19:35 economics, there is actually a surplus 1:19:38 of workers in the agricultural sector. 1:19:43 These five extra people, while 1:19:44 maintaining the same output, should 1:19:45 ideally be absorbed by other sectors. 1:19:48 This is what we call the industrial 1:19:50 sector, so that everything becomes 1:19:51 optimal. Optimal in agriculture, and 1:19:54 optimal in other sectors as well—that 1:19:55 is what industrialization is. Now, 1:20:00 industrialization in our view does not 1:20:03 have to be synonymous with big 1:20:05 factories with billowing smoke, 1:20:08 producing pollution, or causing 1:20:10 urbanization. But what we are doing 1:20:15 here in NTB is building an awareness to 1:20:17 be more courageous in deepening our 1:20:19 industrial structure. Like I said 1:20:24 earlier, if fishermen just catch fish 1:20:27 and sell them by noon, the price is 1:20:29 limited, but if they process them a bit 1:20:32 , say into dried or salted fish, it 1:20:35 lasts longer, which adds value to the 1:20:38 output and creates extra income. So, 1:20:43 just simple processing industries. To 1:20:46 reach this processing industry level, 1:20:49 there is indeed an involvement of 1:20:51 machinery, technology, science, and so 1:20:54 on. Therefore, one of the important 1:20:57 variables in increasing productivity is 1:20:59 the introduction of machinery into the 1:21:01 production process. For example, making 1:21:06 a bag sometimes takes a whole week. But 1:21:09 now, with a bamboo-cutting machine, 1:21:11 what used to take a whole day to cut 10 1:21:13 pieces of bamboo into small strips, can 1:21:15 now reach 1,000 or even 10,000. 1:21:19 The introduction of a simple machine 1:21:21 capable of cutting bamboo from 10 1:21:23 pieces per day to 1,000 or even 10,000 1:21:26 will automatically increase 1:21:27 productivity. This means more bags 1:21:31 produced, more bags sold, and more 1:21:34 income will be earned. Simply put, that 1:21:37 is the case for other sectors as well. 1:21:42 The introduction of machines into the 1:21:44 production process will increase 1:21:46 productivity. Productivity, at the end 1:21:49 of the day, will improve the income of 1:21:51 our people. Yes. 1:21:53 Now, to increase this productivity, 1:21:54 every sector requires different ways of 1:21:56 learning. Selling coffee is different 1:21:58 from selling fish. 1:22:00 Selling crafts is different from the 1:22:02 extractive industry. So, the 1:22:04 introduction of science and machine 1:22:06 technology in every type of industry 1:22:08 has different methods and learning 1:22:09 processes. 1:22:11 People are often mistaken when 1:22:13 introducing it, acting as if technology 1:22:15 is singular, as if technology is 1:22:17 homogeneous. In reality, the learning 1:22:21 process for digital technology is 1:22:23 different from, for example, the 1:22:25 introduction of simple machinery. Well, 1:22:28 we often mindlessly jump to 4.0. 1:22:33 Whereas in regions like NTB, never mind 1:22:36 4.0, 3.0 still exists, 2.0 still exists 1:22:39 , and even 1.0 or below still exists. 1:22:43 Something like that. Well, therefore, 1:22:46 increasing productivity which leads to 1:22:52 improvements in the industrial sector 1:22:53 with different approaches. So, in my 1:22:56 opinion, this needs to be pushed by the 1:22:59 government. Well, I think it's quite 1:23:01 right. Even though Bang Roki criticizes 1:23:04 Pak Jokowi a lot, I am one of those who 1:23:07 see that Pak Jokowi's simple ideas are 1:23:09 actually good if implemented. For 1:23:13 example, buying domestic products, 1:23:14 provided it’s done correctly. But 1:23:17 there are many ideas that I think are 1:23:19 correct. However, in practice, they are 1:23:21 not carried out by his ministers 1:23:22 because they prefer to import since 1:23:24 there are fees involved. They prefer to 1:23:27 import, for example, because the price 1:23:29 is cheaper and the quality is better. 1:23:32 Yet, we actually lose the learning 1:23:34 process and its associated costs. 1:23:37 Therefore, I will keep it simple to 1:23:39 enrich this discussion. To achieve 1:23:42 prosperity, we need increased 1:23:45 productivity. Productivity requires 1:23:48 deepening the industrial structure 1:23:50 where we are willing to move to 1:23:53 industries or products with higher 1:23:55 added value. I think that's the 1:23:58 introduction, Dinda. 1:23:59 Alright, thank you, Bang Gup. Hopefully 1:24:02 , we can meet again soon. If you can 1:24:05 still stay for a while. There will be a 1:24:07 closing statement and closing ideas 1:24:08 later. Uh, Bang Zul. Alright. Friends, 1:24:13 praise be to God, Bang Zul has finally 1:24:15 joined, and we have reached the end of 1:24:17 the event. But before the closing 1:24:21 statements from each speaker, there are 1:24:23 greetings from Pak Mardani Ali Sera. It 1:24:26 turns out he cannot join because he is 1:24:29 also still on the road. And he left a 1:24:32 video. Perhaps the team can play his 1:24:35 video for a moment. I invite the team 1:24:39 to play it briefly. The sound cannot be 1:25:00 heard. when a country this but it goes 1:26:47 down and then up, but this decline is 1:26:50 at least three things 1:26:53 I will convey, the first is 1:26:57 uh, present a political system that has 1:27:02 little toll 1:27:04 that 1:27:06 this has been maximized 1:27:10 firm so that good people want to enter 1:27:12 politics. Politics should not be a 1:27:16 place to play, but truly a place where 1:27:18 the people's aspirations are 1:27:22 The second is of course to improve 1:27:24 education, education, and education 1:27:27 because there is no country 1:27:30 out he 1:27:32 there is an opportunity with a position 1:27:36 let's assume we have one voice, it's 1:27:39 heard clearly. 1:27:42 Yes. Until this is a great opportunity 1:27:49 for us to administer quality education 1:27:51 in Indonesia. Of course, those with 1:27:54 character and at the same time truly 1:27:56 preparing our human resources to become 1:27:58 capable. 1:28:00 The third is of course innovation. 1:28:02 Innovation and here it is needed 1:28:05 greatly to unite Alright friends, that 1:29:57 was the video from Pak Mardani. Can his 1:30:01 voice be heard on YouTube? For us on 1:30:03 Zoom, there is a technical issue and it 1:30:06 cannot be heard. But hopefully, those 1:30:08 on YouTube and the radio can hear it. 1:30:11 And now we have reached the end of the 1:30:14 event with closing statements from our 1:30:16 speakers. We invite Mr. Tauhid first to 1:30:20 give his closing statement, sir. 1:30:23 Yes, thank you, Mas Saldi. I think the 1:30:27 state's role in improving the people's 1:30:29 welfare is indeed very strategic. There 1:30:34 are many instruments that can be used 1:30:36 and I think translating the law 1:30:53 revoke 1:30:54 no? 1:30:57 Hello, Mr. Tauhid. Is it audible? Oh, 1:31:10 Mr. Tauhid might have been disconnected 1:31:12 . Now we go to Mr. Zenzi. Mr. Zenzi. 1:31:22 Yes. economic issues 1:31:34 can you unmute, sir. Okay. Our economic 1:31:38 problems arise when our political 1:31:44 practices are flawed. Where in every 1:31:51 momentum of leadership selection, both 1:31:54 regional and national, the people 1:31:59 entrust their interests and hopes to 1:32:02 the leaders. But the problem is, every 1:32:06 leader elected in Indonesia gives 1:32:11 Indonesia's wealth to third parties, 1:32:14 and this control of Indonesia's wealth 1:32:17 by these third parties outlives the 1:32:20 regime of the leader who granted it. So 1:32:25 , in the next leadership selection 1:32:29 period, those entrusted with the power 1:32:32 over this wealth determine who can lead 1:32:35 . I think this is what must first be 1:32:41 corrected and addressed when we want to 1:32:44 push for economic change through 1:32:46 political change. That is all from me, 1:32:50 wassalamualaikum warahmatullahi 1:32:52 wabarakatuh. Waalaikumsalam 1:32:54 warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. 1:32:55 Waalaikumsalam 1:32:57 Thank you, Mr. Zenzi, for the closing 1:32:59 statement. Mr. Tauhid, are you able to 1:33:01 join us? 1:33:02 I can, it seems the signal is weak, so 1:33:04 I won't use video. 1:33:05 Please, go ahead, sir. 1:33:06 Yes. Thank you, Mas Saldi. 1:33:08 I 1:33:09 I think the state's and government's 1:33:13 role in the people's welfare is very 1:33:17 strategic and a duty, with the note 1:33:21 that welfare must truly be enjoyed by 1:33:25 all levels of society, indicated by 1:33:29 inequality not increasing. However, in 1:33:35 reality, during the pandemic, 1:33:38 inequality actually worsened. I see 1:33:43 there are many things that need 1:33:46 improvement, especially regarding 1:33:50 regulations; our regulatory scenario 1:33:54 has many gaps in translating the 1945 1:33:59 Constitution, both Article 33 and 1:34:03 others. There is no clear economic 1:34:06 concept derived from the translation of 1:34:08 the 1945 Constitution. There is no 1:34:13 development concept that can be ensured 1:34:17 to achieve long-term economic goals. 1:34:22 Second, I think how the sources of 1:34:26 change based on the budget must be 1:34:30 properly guarded and manifested to 1:34:34 truly lead to increased welfare, and we 1:34:38 look at future allocation, distribution 1:34:43 , and so on as an important 1:34:46 prerequisite. And finally, the issue 1:34:51 lies in the implementation side. 1:34:57 Although many of the designs are good, 1:35:00 in reality, there are many violations 1:35:04 or inconsistencies with what was, let's 1:35:08 say, planned. I think this is a 1:35:12 collective homework assignment, both in 1:35:14 terms of policy, budget, and 1:35:15 implementation. That's it. I think 1:35:18 that's all from me, Mas Saldi, as a 1:35:20 closing. Thank you. Peace be upon you. 1:35:24 And peace be upon you too. Thank you, 1:35:28 Mr. Tauhid. And now, for Bung Rocky, 1:35:31 closing ideas from Bung Rocky. Okay, we 1:35:38 just have to choose whether we are 1:35:40 optimistic about new ideas or 1:35:41 pessimistic. Uh. As if we have lost the 1:35:49 ability to participate in the 1:35:51 competition of new economic ideas in 1:35:54 the world. Even though if we pay 1:35:58 attention, for example, uh. Creator 1:36:02 economy, those content creators who 1:36:07 then, uh. Are bought by TikTok, by 1:36:12 YouTube, like that. If I observe, this 1:36:16 nation as content creators is very 1:36:19 innovative, very easy to find content 1:36:22 to then sell to social media platforms 1:36:25 with a bit of mockery, with a bit of, 1:36:29 uh. Humor, with a bit of magic because 1:36:33 news in the regions immediately goes 1:36:35 viral. But it hasn't reached the point 1:36:38 of being a source of income for 1:36:40 Indonesians. It's different abroad. 1:36:42 There is a kid in England, uh. Their 1:36:47 TikTok or content is followed by three 1:36:50 billion people, 3 billion views, uh, 1:36:52 and they might have an income of 100 1:36:55 billion dollars, uh, their followers 1:36:58 are 30 million people, but they are 1:37:01 still a proletarian because they cannot 1:37:04 determine the policy of YouTube, cannot 1:37:07 determine the policy of TikTok. So they 1:37:11 produce something but they don't have, 1:37:14 uh, ownership of that item. They are 1:37:17 dependent on the platform. This is a 1:37:19 kind of inequality. Now, we could 1:37:22 actually promote a change in the 1:37:25 management of this creator economy so 1:37:28 that the ones who create, the creators, 1:37:31 also get a share, uh, as shareholders 1:37:33 in that platform. Now, this part is 1:37:36 what the government must think about. 1:37:39 Don't just keep waiting for, uh, 1:37:41 commodity imports and exports and brag 1:37:43 that the economy is growing. Whereas 1:37:46 the economy grows if there are ideas 1:37:48 that grow. That is the core, actually. 1:37:50 So we must enter into a new way of 1:37:52 having a vision after people discover 1:37:55 that, yes, what is called the 1:37:56 conventional economy must indeed be 1:37:59 ended because there is no brain 1:38:00 contribution there. Climbing palm trees 1:38:04 , then selling. Digging coal mines, 1:38:07 then selling. What kind of brain is 1:38:09 that? There's no brain there. Right? 1:38:11 That's just a matter of technical 1:38:12 skills. There is no concept produced 1:38:15 from human thought. So I think that, uh 1:38:18 , we can only push or give a wake-up 1:38:20 call so that we can think about how the 1:38:23 ability of the Indonesian people to 1:38:25 generate, uh, to finance their own 1:38:28 lives can actually be useful if the 1:38:30 government doesn't argue too much, 1:38:33 doesn't reset too much. Because the 1:38:35 government's promise to produce 1:38:37 prosperity is relied upon by 1:38:38 state-owned enterprises. Meanwhile, 1:38:40 state-owned enterprises are not 1:38:41 actually designed by the constitution 1:38:43 to produce, produce accumulation. 1:38:45 State-owned enterprises should also be 1:38:46 able to lose money as long as the 1:38:47 people profit. This is reversed. The 1:38:49 state-owned enterprises keep making 1:38:51 profits, while the people stay poor and 1:38:53 destitute; that is a chaotic concept. 1:38:55 Yeah. So, that is basically the gist of 1:38:58 it. Encourage civil society to sustain 1:39:01 themselves, and we should push the 1:39:03 government cabinet to keep clashing 1:39:05 among themselves to accelerate the 1:39:07 endgame. Something like that. Alright, 1:39:13 thank you Bung Rocky for the closing 1:39:17 ideas and to all our dear guests 1:39:20 earlier. We have one common thread we 1:39:24 can grasp, that as leaders, heads of 1:39:27 state, regional heads, and ministers, 1:39:31 they must devote all their energy, time 1:39:34 , and thoughts to how the people can 1:39:38 improve their welfare and income, 1:39:41 thereby enhancing their quality of life 1:39:44 , family, education, public health, and 1:39:48 bringing happiness, justice, and 1:39:51 prosperity to our nation. See you on 1:39:55 Industrial The Stop next week on the 1:39:58 same channel and time. Thank you. Peace 1:40:02 be upon you. 
