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0:01 Brail TV. Brothers and sisters blessed 0:10 by Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala. Now we 0:13 enter our dialogue on news topics every 0:15 Wednesday with Bang Toni Rosid. 0:18 Assalamu'alaikum warahmatullahi 0:20 wabarakatuh, Bang Toni. 0:21 >> Wa'alaikumussalam warahmatullahi 0:23 wabarakatuh. 0:23 >> How are you, Bang Toni? Are you healthy 0:25 , Bang Toni? 0:25 >> Alhamdulillah, I am perfectly healthy. 0:28 I hope you stay healthy, as it is flu 0:31 season, Bang Toni. 0:33 >> Oh, is it flu season? Is there a season 0:35 for the flu? 0:36 >> There is a season for it too. Alright, 0:38 Bang Todi. Bang Ti. Heading toward the 0:41 2029 Presidential Election, the 0:42 national political landscape is 0:44 starting to show a clear direction, 0:46 Bang Toni. There are four parties in 0:49 parliament, yes. There is Gerindra, 0:51 then Golkar, PAN, and also PKB, which 0:54 have been said to have declared their 0:56 support for Prabowo Subianto to run 0:58 again as a presidential candidate. But 1:01 what is interesting, Bang Toni, is that 1:03 it is not just about who supports whom. 1:06 There is also a discourse in the 1:08 election bill that has come back into 1:10 the spotlight, especially regarding the 1:12 possible implementation of a 1:14 presidential threshold. If this rule is 1:19 reinstated, there is concern that space 1:21 for other political parties to nominate 1:23 alternative candidates could become 1:25 increasingly limited. So, Bang Toni, 1:30 the question is: are we witnessing 1:32 political competition heading toward 1:35 2029 that is starting to heat up, or is 1:39 there actually a more fundamental issue 1:42 , namely the rules of the game that 1:45 determine who has a chance to run as a 1:48 presidential candidate? That is the 1:52 first one. Then the second, Bang Toni, 1:55 is related to forest and land fires, 1:58 Bang Toni. 2:00 >> Uh. This is becoming a spotlight for 2:04 neighboring countries, Bang Toni, 2:06 especially Singaporean media Channel 2:08 News Asia, which highlights President 2:10 Prabowo Subianto's steps to increase 2:12 efforts to extinguish forest fires in 2:14 Indonesia, especially in Central 2:16 Kalimantan and South Sumatra. So, the 2:19 question is why does this forest fire 2:21 issue keep recurring? Every year. To 2:24 what extent can the government's steps 2:26 overcome the fires and the smog? And 2:29 how, then, Bang Toni, should we view 2:32 the offers of assistance from 2:34 neighboring countries like Malaysia and 2:36 also Singapore? Please go ahead, Bang 2:38 Toni. 2:39 >> Yes. Uh, Mas Agus and all listeners 2:42 wherever you are. First, about the 2:46 support. 2:47 >> Yes. It has not even been two years yet 2:52 . 2:54 >> Yes. 2:55 >> Mr. Prabowo becoming president and 2:57 Gibran becoming vice president, right? 3:00 >> Yeah. 3:01 >> Yes. This is what then creates or has 3:05 the potential to create unnecessary 3:07 noise. Because we should really be 3:12 focusing on performance first. These 3:20 parties should give support to programs 3:23 that are indeed priorities and good for 3:27 the government. Not by supporting each 3:33 other too early, too prematurely. 3:35 >> Yes. This gives a picture that this 3:39 country is managed based on the 3:41 politics of interests. H. 3:44 >> Yes, who? In politics, it is "who gets 3:49 what, when, and how," right? 3:54 >> So, who gets what, when, and where. If 4:00 these next 5 years are just full of 4:05 pragmatism and political interests, 4:09 then yeah. When will this country move 4:15 to accelerate its steps toward its 4:18 vision? 4:20 >> Yeah. 4:22 >> Whether it's the presidential vision or 4:25 the nation's vision set by our founding 4:28 fathers. This is what has become an 4:32 issue, Mas Agus. 4:34 >> Uh-huh. It’s too early, it’s like 4:37 these parties want to show something 4:40 amidst the tension between Mr. Prabowo 4:43 and Mr. Jokowi. 4:46 >> Because of the results of, or following 4:48 the Constitutional Court decision on 4:51 October 16th. 4:53 >> Some parties then wanted to demonstrate 4:56 their loyalty. 4:58 >> Hmm. " 4:58 >> We aren't part of that, Mr. Prabowo."" 5:01 We are part of you." 5:03 >> Uh-huh. So please, believe in us and 5:07 don't fire—or don't reduce our share 5:11 or fire our ministers. That's the real 5:15 message, isn't it? 5:16 >> Uh-huh. 5:17 >> Yeah. How long will this confrontation 5:22 just go on and on? If you want a 5:27 confrontation, do it closer to the 5:29 election. Why? Because doing it now is 5:34 too far off, especially a confrontation 5:37 between the Solo elephant and the 5:39 palace. Who will be the victim? The 5:42 people. Look at the stock market index, 5:46 it keeps dropping. It improved after 5:50 the cabinet reshuffle, but now it’s 5:53 below 6,000; it used to be 8,000. We 5:57 can imagine, what does that mean? It 6:02 dropped by over 2,000 points, right? 6:08 Plus, with this situation, investors 6:10 are running away. 6:12 >> If you, Mas Agus, were an investor and 6:14 saw this uncertain political situation. 6:17 >> Yeah, they'd pull out. Forget about 6:19 putting in money for investment, 6:21 they'll pull out their existing 6:22 investments. Uh-huh. 6:24 >> They're worried and afraid, especially 6:26 with these elephants clashing. 6:29 >> Uh-huh. How long will this feud last? 6:33 Eventually, when this feud is seemingly 6:37 drummed up, then yeah...All the 6:43 components inside it then follow suit. 6:48 Okay, ready for war. Okay, ready for 6:50 war. That's the impression it gives, 6:51 isn't it? 6:52 >> Yeah. Yeah, this is something I often 6:55 repeat, back in...In 2017, I wrote an 7:01 article in mainstream media titled "The 7:04 Power Struggle: Jokowi vs Megawati." 7:08 Then it exploded in 2024. Right? 7:12 >> Uh-huh. 7:14 >> It started in 2022 or 2023, then 2024, 7:18 right? I also wrote about 2025 not long 7:23 ago. When Mr. Prabowo was inaugurated, 7:28 I wrote about it in February, it was 7:32 scientific. Even though Mr. Prabowo 7:36 denied it at the time, saying "No, 7:38 don't pit us against each other." My 7:41 point is, not right now. Closer to the 7:46 election, when it gets heated, go ahead 7:47 and warm up the engines, warm 7:49 everything up. Don't do it now; if the 7:53 engines are warmed up now, the 7:55 political situation becomes unconducive 7:58 . What ends up happening? The impact 8:00 hits the economy. If it impacts the 8:03 economy, the people are the ones who— 8:05 what do you call it? Except for 2000, I 8:08 mean 2024, there was an extraordinary 8:11 political competition with all the 8:13 existing violations and manipulations. 8:17 But the people also got their share of 8:18 the blessings. Yeah. 8:20 >> Even though the next one is, what is it 8:21 ? Well, money just flows, you know. 8:25 Printers get some luck, right? Brochure 8:29 distributors get some luck, too. Then 8:32 the ones who deliver get some luck, the 8:35 whole team gets some luck, everyone 8:38 gets some luck, you know. Meaning there 8:43 is a balance to it. But if there’s a 8:47 fight now, that’s just a clash 8:49 between elites, and the impact is 8:51 destructive, not constructive. The 8:56 impact is negative, not positive. 8:59 >> Mas Agung. So in my opinion, let us 9:05 build political maturity. Political 9:12 maturity is shown by our role in 9:15 thinking about the nation's fate. 9:19 Thinking about the nation's fate to 9:23 nurture a phase of the nation's journey 9:28 toward something better. Not by 9:33 destroying, obstructing, or hindering. 9:39 So I think it’s an unwise statement. 9:43 Even though we understand the political 9:47 direction, it is not wise because it 9:50 will create an unconducive political 9:53 situation that ultimately impacts the 9:57 economy. If it impacts the economy, the 10:01 people will be the ones to suffer. High 10:06 unemployment, increased poverty, and 10:09 the middle class is shrinking—about 10:13 10%of the middle class has fallen into 10:16 the lower class. Then money circulation 10:21 is limited, and inequality is getting 10:26 higher. Then 10:29 >> Deflation, where people's purchasing 10:33 power is low. Now, hopefully, this 10:36 situation is realized and understood. 10:40 Maybe they understand, but they don’t 10:43 want to acknowledge it, or lack the 10:46 sensitivity to avoid making the people 10:50 suffer. Instead, they should be pushed 10:54 to minimize the hit to the people's 10:56 income, not just treating it, but at 10:57 least minimizing the economic situation 10:59 for the people. So it is indeed too 11:02 early, Bang Toni, to conclude the 11:04 future political direction. 11:07 >> One and a half years. 11:08 >> Yeah. 11:09 >> Not even two years yet. 11:11 >> Yeah. 11:12 >> There are still three years to be 11:14 worked on by the President and all 11:16 coalition parties that have given or " 11:19 endowed"—though "endowed" isn't quite 11:21 the right word. Handed over. If you say 11:25 "endowed," it sounds too ideal. Yes. 11:27 Entrusted, right? Entrusting their best 11:32 cadres according to the party to the 11:34 current administration. 11:38 >> Or is this actually an impact from, you 11:41 know, Gibran's diploma case, Bang Toni? 11:45 So 11:47 >> As I mentioned earlier, 11:48 post-Constitutional Court ruling, it's 11:51 like beating the drums. From there, the 11:55 conflict finally strengthens the 11:58 identity and allegiance of each group, 12:01 whether they are neutral, or leaning to 12:05 the right or to the left. Ah, here is 12:09 the party. Because the ruler is Mr. 12:11 Prabowo, they finally declared 12:12 themselves. "We support Mr. Prabowo." 12:16 Meaning to emphasize, "We are not going 12:17 over there, sir." We are here, Sir, 12:19 standing with you in this conflict. If 12:22 the president is Mr. Jokowi, they are 12:24 the same too, you know. We support Mr. 12:26 Jokowi for another term. We are here 12:27 with you, right. If later the president 12:30 is someone else. Ganjar, for example, 12:33 right. Yes, we are with you, just like 12:36 that. 12:37 >> Yes. So political parties shouldn't 12:41 just be, what's it called, pragmatic, 12:44 but more than that. Being pragmatic is 12:48 in line with these interests. But if 12:50 it's back and forth, whoever supports 12:52 this, interests there support there, 12:53 interests here oppose that and support 12:55 here. That is, in quotes, people will 12:58 accuse them of being opportunists. Yes. 13:02 But Bang Toni, the Constitutional Court 13:04 itself, through ruling number 62 of 13:07 2024, has abolished the presidential 13:09 threshold provision. If a new discourse 13:12 then emerges to limit candidacy, how 13:14 can we understand, Bang Toni, the 13:16 relationship between the Constitutional 13:18 Court's decision and the drafting of 13:20 laws by the House of Representatives 13:22 and the government? 13:24 >> Yes, the bill is already finished. 13:26 >> Hm. Yeah. 13:27 >> It just needs to be passed, whether 13:29 there is resistance or not. I heard 13:32 that's the case. So the draft is 13:34 already, what's it called? Already 13:36 finished, you see. 13:37 >> Yes. Will it then receive some 13:41 >> resistance or not, you see. So, uh, The 13:48 Constitutional Court gave a decision 13:50 that the presidential threshold 13:53 >> uh what is it called? Is 0%, right. 13:59 Then, uh, what is it called, this is 14:02 going to be tinkered with in a way 14:04 where the leaked information appearing 14:07 is that it must still be supported by 14:10 two parties. 14:12 >> Yeah. Yes, this is considered not to 14:15 conflict or be against the 0% 14:17 presidential threshold, it's considered 14:20 not to be against it, you see. But when 14:24 determining, for example, that it must 14:26 be supported by two parties. Uh, these 14:28 two parties are two parliamentary 14:30 parties. 14:31 >> If those two parties can be 14:32 non-parliamentary, that doesn't 14:34 conflict, it's free, it doesn't 14:36 conflict. 14:36 >> Yeah. 14:37 >> For example, what's it called, Gelora 14:40 could nominate, right. Umat could 14:43 nominate, right. Ah, that is truly in 14:47 accordance with the Constitutional 14:49 Court's decision, which is a 0% 14:51 threshold, you see. But if it must be 14:56 two parties and those parties must be 14:58 from parliament, that is a problem. 15:02 Secondly, I also heard there is this 15:04 discourse. Discourse, yes, the 15:06 discourse that the presidential 15:07 candidate must be 15:10 >> a party cadre who has been a party 15:13 member for at least 5 years. Yes, where 15:19 is this headed? We don't have a fixed 15:23 standard here. Wow, in the end, 15:26 everything will just die, right. 15:29 >> Yeah. 15:29 >> Right. What is there to leave behind if 15:32 everything changes? So there should be 15:37 a standard, things that become 15:39 principles in this constitutional 15:42 process that are guarded and maintained 15:46 together, which in the end, feel free 15:50 to modify, but do not dismantle, right? 15:55 If everything is constructed, 15:58 reconstructed, deconstructed, and 16:01 reconstructed again, when will 16:04 Indonesia ever move to a higher stage? 16:09 >> Yes. 16:09 >> Back to square one. Back to square one. 16:12 Back to square one. That is why it is 16:15 important to have a set standard. 16:19 Let’s say, for example, just stick to 16:22 a multiparty system, if it’s a 0% 16:25 presidential threshold, let it be 0%; 16:27 if it’s 4%, let it stay 4%forever. 16:33 This prevents room for maneuvers to 16:39 block this or that, so we can move 16:45 forward stably. But if even fundamental 16:50 things are constantly being changed. 16:54 The presidential threshold is changed, 16:56 the parliamentary threshold is changed; 16:58 when the regime changes, it changes 17:00 again, and again. It’s the same as 17:04 those ministry templates; if the 17:07 orientation is more project-based, you 17:10 know. Uh, what? New minister, new 17:16 template; new minister, new branding; 17:19 new minister, new, what do you call it, 17:23 applications costing tens of billions. 17:27 New minister, new application. 17:29 Meanwhile, the old application could 17:31 still be used. Yes. 17:33 >> If it needs modification, modify it, 17:36 don't just throw it away and replace it 17:38 . Throwing it away and replacing it. 17:40 This makes life miserable for many. It 17:43 burdens the staff, burdens the civil 17:45 servants, confuses the people who have 17:48 to learn again, creates new projects, 17:50 and opens up opportunities for 17:52 corruption and so on. 17:54 >> Yes. 17:55 >> It ruins the country. A country that 17:57 does not operate according to its 17:58 foundation. So, in my opinion, we 18:00 modern people in these cities, we who 18:02 practice modern politics, need to learn 18:03 . 18:05 >> We need to learn from those in the 18:08 villages, from the local wisdom they 18:10 uphold, like the Baduy people—that's 18:13 an extreme example. 18:15 >> Yes, there are things that cannot be 18:17 changed, while others can. For example, 18:18 for the Baduy, the city life, right? 18:20 Their clothes, their clothes can be 18:22 changed, they can wear sandals, but 18:24 this must not be changed, that must not 18:27 be changed. So, there should be areas 18:30 that are considered semi-sacred, right? 18:34 And areas that are truly profane. What 18:36 does semi-sacred mean? Do not change it 18:39 unless there are truly urgent 18:42 considerations that compel or 18:46 necessitate a change. But if there is 18:50 no reason, there should be a standard. 18:52 What is the reason that allows this to 18:53 be changed? If there isn't one, it 18:55 shouldn't be changed. That is what I 18:56 call semi-sacred. But for other things, 19:00 feel free to make modifications or use 19:02 profane, new programs. But why change 19:06 applications, why change templates? 19:10 It’s just a waste of money. 19:11 >> We can still use what we had yesterday, 19:13 Bang Toni. 19:14 >> We can still use what we had yesterday. 19:17 It’s like this in a broader political 19:19 context. About the presidential 19:23 threshold, just set it and stop 19:25 changing it. Yeah. 19:29 >> Every single period it's tempted to be 19:31 changed. Every period they want to 19:35 change it, we're in an uproar, it's a 19:38 hassle, our energy is wasted on things 19:41 that I think are secondary. 19:44 >> Yeah. 19:44 >> Not primary. 19:47 >> Meanwhile, primary matters—the things 19:49 that, you know, aren't being handled 19:52 much—are neglected because our energy 19:54 is spent on these secondary things. 19:58 >> Yeah. Alright, Bang Toni. There is a 20:01 comment here from an Rasil listener, 20:03 Bang Toni. From Ibu Darma. "I didn't 20:05 vote during the election, Bang Toni."" 20:08 Does that mean I don't share the burden 20:09 of the sin, Bang Toni?" 20:12 >> It's not necessarily like that. Because 20:14 , you see, we are social beings, and in 20:18 this nation, everyone has rights and 20:21 also obligations. 20:23 >> Yeah. 20:24 >> Our obligation is to contribute to the 20:26 country so it runs better. Right. In 20:30 religious concepts, there is*amar 20:31 ma'ruf nahi munkar*. If you see a wrong 20:34 , you must be present, at the very 20:36 least with your heart, and not run away 20:38 from it. 20:40 >> That's how it is. Even if it's a form 20:43 of protest. How many people are 20:46 apathetic. For example, there's about 20:49 20%. "Why bother voting?""Nothing 20:53 changes anyway; the same leaders emerge 20:54 , the country is managed the same way, 20:55 corruption persists, and so on." This 20:58 should provide a warning, you know. 21:02 It's not that they don't care; it's 21:04 because they think there's no change: " 21:06 Whether I have a vote or not, nothing 21:08 changes." This apathy is huge in this 21:11 country. 21:12 >> Yeah. And this must be a criticism, a 21:15 warning to politicians, especially 21:17 those who win and become the managers 21:20 of this country. 21:21 >> Yeah. Alright, Bang. 21:23 >> So, what was said by Ibu Darma is a 21:25 protest. 21:25 >> A protest. 21:28 >> Lastly, from our dialogue on this first 21:30 theme, Bang Toni, what is your message 21:33 to the public so that in the 2029 21:35 Presidential Election, even though it's 21:37 still a long way off, it doesn't just 21:40 become an elite battle and a division 21:42 of power, but truly becomes a space for 21:44 the people to determine their choice of 21:47 leadership? What is it, Bang? 21:49 >> The key is there. The key is the 21:51 organic intellectual. Okay. 21:54 >> If we use Gramsci for now, it's a bit 21:57 difficult, but organic intellectuals 22:01 exist in two places: in power and in 22:04 the people, in civil society. The 22:09 organic intellectuals in civil society 22:12 must not only shout, but also take 22:15 steps to minimize these opportunistic 22:18 practices, these manipulative practices 22:22 . And this can only be done by—well, 22:26 if we rely on the state, it won't 22:27 happen, and this has to be...because 22:29 the system is that, uh, the state 22:31 exploits the public's ignorance through 22:33 low education and the poverty of the 22:35 people through that hunger. Then the... 22:39 the politicians, not the state, those 22:41 politicians then bribe, pay off, yeah, 22:43 you could bring in a million preachers 22:45 ...a million clerics, and no change 22:47 will happen either. 22:49 >> No change will happen, right? Why is 22:52 that? This is a systemic problem, a 22:54 social problem. There must be, yeah, 22:57 political work to change that system, 22:59 not just lectures from the pulpit, you 23:02 know. Lectures from the pulpit are 23:04 important, yes. People listen to 23:06 lectures, for example, Friday sermons, 23:08 or at church, people listen to sermons 23:09 from a pastor or a priest, right? But 23:12 if their stomachs are empty, 23:13 >> yes. 23:14 >> they will ask the pastor, "Will you, 23:16 Pastor, take over 23:18 >> taking care of our stomachs?"" 23:20 >> Will you, Ustaz, take over taking care 23:21 of our stomachs?" It doesn't resonate. 23:23 >> Yeah. 23:24 >> Therefore, these organic intellectuals, 23:26 these organic intellectuals, academics, 23:28 yeah, friends. They don't just need to 23:31 be loud in the media; in my opinion, 23:34 they need to gather to do what? To 23:37 reduce, right? To reduce it, let's say, 23:39 by becoming election observers in the 23:41 process. They shout, they provide data, 23:44 they protest, they report it, you know. 23:48 If this is done massively, these 23:50 organic intellectuals exist from the 23:52 top down to the lower levels, for 23:54 instance, in universities, organized 23:56 well and systemically. I think this can 24:01 also become a resistance that is quite 24:03 capable of, uh, minimizing manipulation 24:06 and also that, uh, what do you call it, 24:08 uh, corrupt potential, the corruption 24:11 of that political process. 24:14 >> Alright, Bang Toni. Then the second 24:15 thing, Bang Toni, regarding these 24:17 forest fires, the government has 24:18 already deployed more than 60,000 24:20 personnel to help with the 24:21 extinguishing. However, amidst the haze 24:23 that is starting to impact neighboring 24:25 countries, there is an interesting 24:27 point. Malaysia and Singapore have 24:29 actually offered assistance to put out 24:32 the fires. But, uh, this offer hasn't 24:34 been discussed in Indonesian government 24:37 meetings. The question is, why does 24:39 this forest fire issue, Bang Toni, 24:41 continue to repeat every year? To what 24:43 extent can the government's steps 24:45 actually overcome these fires and the 24:47 haze? Bang, 24:49 >> this is just a ritual. 24:51 >> People ask, is this a wildfire or is it 24:53 set on fire? 24:54 >> Oh, yeah. Ah, certainly both. What is 24:59 the fact? The fact is there are always 25:01 suspects, right? 25:02 >> Yeah. 25:04 >> Every forest fire in that annual ritual 25:07 always has suspects. One. Second, the 25:11 suspects are always small-time people. 25:14 >> Yes. It rarely touches the big players, 25:15 right? Meanwhile, the burning is 25:18 extraordinary, isn't it? Tens, dozens 25:22 of thousands of hectares, yeah, and the 25:24 suspects are two or three common people 25:27 . Common people burn 2 hectares, 10 25:30 hectares at most. 25:31 >> Yeah. 25:33 >> You know. What does that mean? This 25:35 leads to a conclusion that there are 25:38 wildfires, but there is also arson. 25:42 There are even reports we need to 25:43 double-check, yeah, afraid the data 25:45 might be wrong. 70%of those ritual 25:48 burnings are usually, uh, intentional. 25:53 >> H 25:55 >> If the data is true, if what WALHI says 25:57 and their data is accurate, then it's 26:00 hard for us, uh, our logic struggles to 26:03 accept that small-scale farmers are the 26:05 ones doing the burning. 26:08 >> Yeah. Now, why is it that when burning 26:11 occurs? Just check why the burning 26:14 happens near, uh, what do you call it? 26:17 Plantations. 26:18 >> Hm. 26:19 >> The burning occurs on plantations. Some 26:22 of those plantations are already, for 26:24 example, palm oil plantations that need 26:25 to be replanted, right? 26:27 >> Yeah. 26:28 >> They need replanting. And also the 26:30 forests surrounding the plantations. 26:32 Why not deep in the middle of nowhere? 26:35 >> Yeah. Yeah. It’s reasonable to 26:38 suspect that this is, uh, intentional 26:42 burning. If that's true, then outside 26:47 assistance won't be easy. Why is the 26:53 burning target not yet finished? 26:55 >> Burning target, right. 26:57 >> That’s roughly the logic being built 26:59 there. Isn't that right? 27:02 >> The logic being built there, exactly. 27:06 So, because of that, uh, many countries 27:09 have offered help, including Singapore, 27:11 they have aircraft that in a matter of 27:14 seconds can take, uh, so many, uh, what 27:16 do you call it, metric tons of water, 27:19 right, cubic meters, so many cubic 27:21 meters, and then it can be released by 27:23 plane. There are special planes, and 27:27 Indonesia is the largest country in 27:30 Southeast Asia with the most extensive 27:33 fires, and it's routine or a yearly 27:35 ritual. We don't buy planes, we don't 27:38 have them, even when offered on loan 27:39 they aren't picked up or even opened. 27:45 From there, it then becomes a question, 27:48 it really becomes a question. Is this a 27:53 disaster or a crime, right? 27:56 >> Yeah. Yes. 27:58 >> Right. Is this a disaster or a crime? 28:01 Well, it has to be proven. Uh, so, well 28:06 , this needs a court so there's no more 28:09 guessing, please let Malaysia and 28:11 Singapore report it to, what do you 28:13 call it, uh, international justice, to 28:16 prove whether these Indonesian fires 28:19 sending smoke over there are accidental 28:22 fires or intentional burnings, so that 28:24 the data is revealed and it also opens 28:27 our eyes and the world's eyes so it can 28:30 be prevented. If the data isn't 28:34 identified, uh, how can we carry out, 28:36 uh, what do you call it, prevention? 28:39 >> Yeah. 28:41 >> It won't work, there is a principle in 28:44 the Quran about assessing what one has 28:46 sent ahead, data collection first, data 28:48 identification first, just like in a 28:50 thesis or dissertation, right? Data 28:54 collection first, problem formulation 28:55 first. What is the problem here? Once 28:59 the data is identified comprehensively 29:02 and in detail as well as holistically, 29:05 only then can it be handled. Why is it 29:09 the same hole every year, the same 29:11 problem, the same season over and over? 29:13 >> Yeah. 29:15 >> That's it. 29:16 >> Yeah. 29:18 >> Yeah, it's like we're just playing 29:20 around, Mas Agus. 29:22 >> Yes. Regarding Sri's comment about 29:24 things burning or being burned, 29:26 poisoned or being poisoned. That's how 29:28 it is, Bang Toni. This is also my final 29:30 question, Bang Toni. If we face the 29:32 same problem every year, while the 29:34 impact has already reached neighboring 29:36 countries, Bang Toni. What actually 29:39 needs to be fixed by this country? Our 29:42 firefighting capabilities, land burning 29:44 surveillance, or the government's 29:46 commitment to preventing forest fires. 29:50 >> Well, all of that is commitment, like 29:53 prevention, surveillance, prevention, 29:55 and then add what else? Resolution and 29:59 punishment, right. What does resolution 30:02 mean? Yes, how to stop the fires 30:05 through collaboration by all parties, 30:08 not just nationally but also 30:10 internationally, while simultaneously 30:13 giving punishment as prevention. 30:16 >> The law has two functions: one is 30:19 justice, and two is prevention, right? 30:23 As long as we do prevention without a 30:26 legal process, it won't be prevented. 30:29 >> Uh-huh. 30:30 >> As long as we do prevention through a 30:32 legal process that is unfair. Only 30:34 small people, just a few small people, 30:36 then prevention won't happen. 30:38 >> Uh-huh. 30:39 >> Like that. Simple, right? It's simple 30:42 to say, to talk about, right. But to 30:46 practice it, it is not that simple. 30:50 Complicated, messy, complex, and so on. 30:52 >> Alright, Bang Toni. Thank you, Bang 30:55 Toni, for our dialogue this morning. 30:57 Stay healthy always, Bang Toni. Peace 30:59 be upon you and Allah's mercy and 31:00 blessings. 31:01 >> And peace be upon you too. And Allah's 31:02 mercy and blessings. 
